"You know that movie where the girl takes in a wolf cub and nurses it until one day it bites her because it is a wolf and the girl takes it out into the field and says "Go! Be free!" and then the wild animal comes back and says, "I want to sleep in your cozy bed lapping up tea while you sing," And then the girl picks up a stick and says, "Get out of here!" and the wolf comes back and the girl kicks the wolf, and the wolf comes back and the girl hits the wolf with the stick and the wolf comes back and the girl starts running after the wolf, throwing rocks at the wolf, pushing it further out into the woods where it can grow and thrive and be a big strong wild beast?
That is how I date." - Larkin, 6/6/15

so it turns out gira is the 3rd person she's accused of raping her on facebook this month!

wow! she sure does get raped a lot! might be time to go to the cops... no?

And the others are?

Nothing in this disproves Larkin accusations, indeed i find this "defense" that my wife seems to have been more traumatized by her experience than Larkin to be a terrible emotive red herring fallacy. Either they have proof or they don't but so far they haven't put anything convincing only distractions

On Saturday (Feb. 27), Grimm shared the following written statement with Billboard:

Yesterday was the worst day of my life. My phone was ringing constantly starting at 6am with calls from people concerned and anxious and worried about me. Many people close to me doubted my truth. I was receiving hate mail from so many men and a few women, and supportive messages from friends, family, fans, and women who have been raped. So many women told me their devastating stories of being raped, in graphic detail. It was heartbreaking. My whole body shook with constant adrenaline rushes and my heart beat wildly every time I opened a new message, not knowing what poison it might contain.

At a certain point I turned off my phone, practiced the mantra meditation I learned in Nepal, and practiced yoga with a friend. This centered me and allowed me to continue my attempts to handle this situation with wisdom and compassion.

Today was much better. Michael's statement is basically an admission of guilt, and underscores my message that we must all learn the meaning of consent so there are no blurred lines between sex and rape.

I am not here to attack Michael. I could not publish this story without using his name, because other beloved producers I have worked with, like Martin Bisi and Tony Visconti, might accidentally be blamed. I had to name him. But he is just a man. If you gather together ten friends, five male and five female, chances are at least one of the men has raped and one of the women has been raped. The abuse of women is so prevalent and accepted in our culture! This must change. I am here to protect other women. I am here to stand up for all victims of assault, be they male or female. I will not stand by and watch someone being abused and do nothing. This sacrifice of my privacy and dignity was WORTH IT.

Anyone can be a rapist. All it takes is a moment of unchecked desire and a lack of self control. There are good men out there who may have raped in ignorance of the effects of their actions.

Rape is always harmful, regardless of the circumstances. It may not always be physically violent, but it is psychologically violent.

We need to have compassion for the ignorance of the rapist as well as compassion for the extraordinary difficulty and danger in reporting a rape. This problem can be solved with compassion, patience, and education.

notice the backtrack "blurred lines of consent" - so not rape then but confused consentuality? and how its not about her anymore and its to educate.

"I loved him more than I have loved just about anyone, but I did not want to have sex with him, and I made that very clear over and over."

Who was she making it clear to......Michael & his wife while being a guest in their house? To those in the recording studio?




"We were with Michael’s friends and they were drinking heavily and encouraging me to keep up with them. I’m a pretty lightweight drinker. At the end of the night it became obvious that I was too drunk to drive home, too drunk to even walk straight. Michael invited me to stay with his friends. They said they had a bed for me and that Michael would sleep on the floor. I trusted them and agreed.

At the apartment of Michael’s friends, I crawled into bed without changing my clothes or brushing my teeth. I just passed out. A little later Michael woke me up coughing."



Just because she was invited to keep drinking, why would she......especially for being such a "lightweight?"

Michael's coughing was enough to wake her up, yet someone removing her clothes enough to "insert" anything wasn't enough to disturb her slumber?

Rape is a serious thing and not to be taken lightly! Not enough evidence here to know who is telling the truth, but any decent defense attorney will have a field day with this!

Oh my fellow men you embarrassing me with this. And to think, i was legitimately defamed on this forum as a misogynist a few years ago :(

It's seems strange that in a story about getting raped she adds details about whether she brushed her teeth or not. Likewise adding details in the second post about taking time to do yoga and how it "centered" her.

?!?!?!?!

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it's hard to accept that it may have.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what Mrs Gira pulls out of this file she keeps mentioning.

Whether its weird or not doesn't negate it could be real.

I think in general it's unclear because we will never know the truth, it's he said/she said.

Saying that, I'm prone to believing Larkin more. She has nothing to gain by making this accusation. Whenever a woman makes a rape accusation there is always a myriad of men attempting to deconstruct and discredit her claim, approach the accuser with a 'stupid bitch' mentality etc. It's disgusting and only a small amount of rape accusations are dismissed as false. Why does the conversation always jump suddenly to "she's lying" given how small the percentage of false claims are? And this doesn't figure in the number of women who don't come forward through fear of not being believed because the aforementioned sudden conclusion of "she's lying'. I know it's said to death in certain social justice circles, but this is total rape culture in action guys.

Grimm Larkin will be known as the woman who accused Michael Gira of rape, Michael Gira will continue to be known as the decades long frontman and songwriter of Swans. Why would any woman want to be branded as such? It makes no sense.

I'm bummed out about the accusation too but it seems that people want to take Gira's side simply because they enjoy his music. His account of the night in question mirrors her account simply with consent conveniently added in. His wife's rebuttals only seem to try and comment on her character. Like, she can be the biggest craziest narcissist ever and still be a rape victim.

It's weirdness compounded by not wanting this to be true

More than five men have posted in this thread. Time to fess up, whoever you are. It's okay. The rest of us will accept you. It's just rape.


"I'm sorry. I didn't think you mind being raped. I've heard such good things about it. Forgive my ignorance."

1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted by the time they reach age 25. 1 in 20 men are sexually assaulted by the time they reach 25. (and that is a CONSERVATIVE estimate by the National Institute of Health in USA)

How can anything that comes from the brain behind Swans surprise anyone? I assumed that dude Gira was a nihilistic prevert of some sort. I mean, have you guys ever actually LISTENED to Swans???

Did not surprise me, just like it was not surprising to know that David Bowie was into boning "jailbait" groupies (because of his tiny little pecker. a full grown vagina was too overwhelming for David Bowie).

jesus christ. You are fairly clueless when it comes to how society and the police deal with rape. There are hundreds and hundreds, if not THOUSANDS, of "rape kits' that are never analyzed for DNA, never actually used to investigate a rape case. Small towns cannot afford tgo do it, large cities get backlogged with what they consider "real" crimes, like murder, and marijuana possession.

it is easy to blame the person who is the victim. Fuck Michael Gira whether or not he did this. who gives a shit about HIM? he can take care of himself. What makes you or anyone think that any women or man benefits by claiming someone raped them? It is that exact cynicism that allows rapists to get away with shit or so long.

When your sister or aunt or cousin or daughter or girlfriend or wife comes to you and shares that she has been raped, I hope you do not react with "Really? Are you sure? But you said you brushed your teeth first...."

false allegations and the stupidity of AUTOMATICALLY BELIEVING THEM because rape culture does not do any service to actual victims.

this rape culture you guys are talking about no longer legally exists. im sure it exists among some men still. but the law does not function that way.

its a description of what things USED to be like in more conservative and patriarchal times. but it is no longer a description of how the law functions. it is overwhelming on the side of the victim unless you are super rich and not famous.

the laws have already been changed. things are different. women DO lie about rape for petty, vindictive and narcissistic reasons. it happens.

some of you cannot think about the actual complex and nuanced world where your preferred narrative is only one side of the story.

the point of the false accusation is to start a hate mob against the accused and gain sympathy and attention for the accuser. its jeremy kyle/jerry springer shit. its what fucked up/amoral individuals do sometimes.

but you guys just cant accept this possibility because you're too blinded by the righteous hatred.

in the uk 2 famous actors from the soap opera coronation street were separately falsely accused. the courts eventually threw out the cases after it was proved that the women had made it all up.

and rich lib fems wrote articles after this ruling that started off "i DONT KNOW if x is innocent or not..." and then went into the usual canards about rape culture etc. etc.

because they will never admit to anything that contradicts the narrative they are pushing which is on display by posters in this thread, which is the redefinition of consensuality as something the woman can choose to define as present or not at any moment after the fact, and the automatic disbelief of a mans claim to consensuality.

there are complex reasons i suspect some women are doing this, they aren't good.

humans are stupid. we think the solution to misogyny is misandry. we are not so smart.

it's NOT ABOUT STOPPING RAPE. rich white lib fems are the most protected women in society. it's about power and in group narratives.

rich white lib fems maintain their comfortable positions on the backs of the exploited poor and sex workers

they want to keep those positions and their activist moralism is a confused mixture of trying to maintain it, purge their guilt and keeping open illusions of progression for those below them.

we are gonna move into a situation were rich people use blockchain contracts for each sexual interaction

-

larkin grimm is lying. she cant get a record deal and her career is failing and she's making false accusations against the most famous people she ever worked with and gira is famous enough for the internet to take off with it, the other guys are barely being mentioned. she's making these statements to billboard.com etc. in order to promote herself. she wants to destroy giras career for the sake of her own brand recognition. she stated she would "destroy" his career in revenge for dropping her from young god. she saw the attention kesha got and then did it herself.

LYING AMORAL SOCIOPATH.

gira did nothing wrong and is himself a rape victim, so is his wife. that some of you think its just to believe he's a rapist is pretty low. trying thinking rationally before feeling emotion about this because unless you do that you will never even realize that what you're the problem and not the person you're witchhunting.

This is very ugly. But she is clear: "In the end, this is about business."

She is not accusing him of drugging her or acting violently

No, she says they were both extremely drunk and got in a bed together.

She might not even remember reaching over and pulling Gira to her. Or rolling over in her sleep which he drunkenly might interpret as an invitation.

There is a very complicated case here in NYC - everyone screamed at the perps but then it comes out maybe it didn't happen that way - maybe even worse in my mind - the 'freak' being available to anyone - and if this girl was being victimized by the father - this is a sick evil civilization.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...-set-free.html

everyone should be treated as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. In day to day life? I would rather err on the side of a victim and then have to apologize to someone falsely accused, than to side with the accused and then have to apologize to a sexual assault victim for not believing THEM.

everyone always believes that a woman was asking for it. load of horseshit.

Thanks rob.. unfortunately some folks here living in that Saudi prince mentality

robs mentality is to blindly assume a rape victim is a rapist because someone who is female says so, and "fuck him" because who cares anyway, he writes dark music. basically rob isnt even interested if gira did it or not, he's already made up his mind.

this is an inverted/identical version of the old "shes a woman shes a lying whore dont listen to her" thing

which is what you guys are fighting against right?

fucking geniuses

2 wrongs dont make a right

-

meanwhile talentless larkin grimm releases new song dedicated to survivors of abuse while scrubbing original posts from her fb. also she's touring and we should go see her and give her support!

yale taught her entitlement like it does if it cant teach you any actual knowledge or skills and now gira is the latest person to be thrown under the bus in recompense for her failing career.

these people are bred to be entitled to use you and feel no guilt.

I totally agree......however, everyone is also responsible for their actions.

Choosing to drink more than you regularly do and inviting someone into bed with you are NOT invitations for rape, but they are no doubt choices she now regrets!

Yes especially Gira

Yes especially Gira

dead_battery just shut up already. You got your foot so far down your throat its coming out of your ass smelling like shit

Yes, I can get on board with this.
Legally speaking, its innocent until proven guilty (though the burden of proof does not lie 100% on the accuser in all situations and all states), but it's still important to take any claim of violence seriously when we're discussing issues like rape in open forums, and trying to decide where our personal allegiances lie.

That's what I thought when I was hemming and hawing about posting this. I thought it would be unnecessary and stupid and tacky, but like I said, we never talked about the Jackie Fuchs/Kim Fowley allegations, and I didn't bring it up because it made me uncomfortable. But this is the kind of thing that needs to be talked about, partly because of how uncomfortable it is.

Nobody's trashing anyone here. Well, some are, but most aren't.

This is a board populated by fans of punk and its various subgenres. Not only that, but the people on this board are quite intelligent and opinionated about social issues and politics. I think it's partly our duty to talk about this and to listen to one another, and to avoid sweeping this shit under the rug.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd rather risk being wrong than say nothing and let myself fall in with the folks who don't talk about difficult of ugly issues when they have to do with respected figures in their community.

I thought it was important Severian and i am glad you posted it. If we are gonna talk about Swans we NEED to talk about this. I just hope Kim isn't lurking to see some of the bonehead comments here

Dude its cut and dry and the two or more people involved in the sexual act know EXACTLY what it is. Stop tap dancing, its fine if you want to wait to reserve judgement BUT don't kid yourself like rape is something subjective to define.

No we're not so i don't know why so many rushed in to call her a liar and then slut shame her when we don't know at all. What we do know is an accusation has been made and until we know otherwise we have reasonable suspicion. Its not like Gira was in a different time zone pr something so its hardly impossible

Not at all, but what i AM saying is that if someone claims it we (a) have no right to crassly dismiss it and (b) definitely have no right to attack the credibility of the accused. Indeed many times women are raped precisely because they lack credibility so that is why we have to take it seriously until proven otherwise.

BULLSHIT. its never ambiguous or obscure to define. Its 100% cut and dry. NOW if what you mean to say is without more evidence its hard to know IF it happened than fine that is indeed true but whatever did happen if it was RAPE is cut and dry. Sorry. Perhaps the one being sexist is you?

For example point blank no one here has said "oh Gira did it" BUT what is a insensitive and shit perspective is for those who said "oh she is lying" without a shred of evidence to suggest that she is. We don't know one way or the other so we can't say anything about her until we do

Dude. Quit why you are at least not any worse behind

No its FAR from what you have actually been saying

Hey don't be mad at me, you the one saying dumb shit!

I ain't hotheaded in the least, but i will call out dumb shit. Sometimes in SYG our dumbshit is fine or tolerable, i for one will always call out dumb shit about rape! I ain't got no beef with ya my brother but i ain't gonna look the other way about some of the comments here including yours.

I tried to PM you..
Look this isn't about you. But i did call out your comments about both her likely lying and in particular your comments that rape is obscure to define or ambiguous. I also called out those others who used slut shaming or attacked her character or personality as if that made a difference. Promiscuous women or "bitches" get raped too. Women who lack credibility can still have been raped.

Further i even went after the comments that "she bore some responsibility" as this is blame the victim. No one is to blame if they are raped but the rapist, period. I love ya bro but it is what it is.