i think most naysayers are english, and therefore not "idiots"-- i think (i'm not positive here) that the proper term is "cunts".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunt

???

Is there not purity anymore?

in germany?

i'm not speaking of nazism of course...

http://brewingmuseum.org/purity_law.htm

Actually I think it was less of a wager and more of an agreement that you would almost certainly perform the aforementioned tasks. The extra action of calling someone a prick means you do indeed win. You win the nebulous and useless prize of my faint praise.

America hasn't got a lot of history, so some nebulous link is grasped a bit stronger. Such is my interpretation.

The thing that always confuses me is that the majority of English people would describe themselves as British (especially non-Caucasian English), while the majority of Northern Irish, Welsh and Scottish would describe themselves as such. It's a pretty difficult territory to negotiate - apart from the Patrick's day absurdity ("I shook hands with an Irishman once, ergo I'm Irish") I think it's easier to let people describe themselves as an how they feel - it's a compliment to English culture that the notion of 'Englishness' is such an incredibly ambiguous thing, like 'all things to all wo/men'.

Faint praise, you say? I'm sort of a bit touched. Kind of.

By the way, happy St. Patrick's Day to Fishmonkey and Pauly, who are the only two actual irish guys who haven't even posted on here yet.

They're probably sick of drunken English cunts invading Dublin in oversized novelty hats, drinking to excess and generally patronising them. I doubt that would have stopped them sinking a few Guinesses if they're anything like the Irish people I know (and god knows we can conveniently base the attributes of an entire nation of the example of a few)

it has more to do with cultural identity, as all of white people in this country descend from recent immigrants. "native" americans, commonly known as indians, have been here for milennia. everyone else is not a "native' but the descendent of a colonist or immigrant of some kind.

it's more complicated you see because the "history" is a bit longer (not written mind you) except that it's not the history of the dominant groups.

the english, by the way, have history of appropriating irish and scottish writers that are deemed "good enough" to be "english"-- whereas lesser writers are praised for their provincial color & kept in the provincial anthologies. parallel to that, i suspect one wouldn't want to be scottish or irish in england because it might be like declaring yourself a country bumpkin. in america the social pressures are applied differently and so people will construct their identities differently.

this is of course a long fucking discussion i'm not willing to pursue here, much less under the spell of a hangover, but it gets tiring to see people in one country making misinformed judgments about another country they do not understand-- just like when americans start talking out of their asses about the french... so please don't think im saying "america rah rah rah"-- it's often much worse here. just pointing that out.

Well, yesterday, someone did not want to sell me a box of fags(cigarettes, for Americans.) They thought I was sixteen, pricks. I am 22.

I think it's a bit silly as well. It doesn't bother me in the slightest whatever people want to call themselves, but it does make me chuckle sometimes the way Americans or Australians (let's just say white people descending from European colonists or even convicts) seem so keen on claiming some distant heritage... or even being proud of it.

While I was in Australia a few years ago I was working at some dude's sugar cane farm for a while. His grandfather had emigrated from Italy to Australia after world War I(!) and had never gone back. His father was born and grew up in Australia and had never been to Italy and neither had this guy himself, but he couldn't stop talking about Italy-this-Italian-that-blablabla. I just couldn't understand why someone would cling so much on to a heritage that was so distant in both time and space. But what amazed me even more is how proud he seemed to be of that as well. I don't know why anyone would actually be proud of their heritage anyway. It's not an achievement to be born somewhere, neither is it an achievement that your grandfather was born somewhere. I'll never take pride (or embarassment) in "being Dutch" or "being born in the Netherlands". It wouldn't make sense.

One of my uncles traced my family tree (mother's side) back to the 17th or 18th (I don't remember) century somewhere in Germany. I don't know how many generations that goes back, but I'd feel really dumb when I'd start calling myself partly German because of that.

how about the other side of the arguement, some of the people we know don't like mentioning what country they are from(more acurately when they ask someone not to say where they are from) , I find that odd, nothing i know comes to mind as to why it's an issue

American- Irish and American- Italians are the main culprits for that, and it annoys me because you only happen to be born in one place, not two at the same time.

right. culturally, i am american. genetically, i am mostly irish.

I'm not partly anything. I have an irish name and I have a lot of close scottish relatives but I'm not really concerned about it.

I think people cling on to old heritages because they would like to be something else, something different from their boring selves.

jesus christ, the only reason i mentioned it was because of the fucking holiday and you all had to have a shitfit about it. I'M A FUCKING AMERICAN, WE ALL KNOW THIS NOW WHETHER IT WAS APPARENT BEFORE OR NOT.

I wasn't referencing you, I was just talking about it... you know, generally. It's a good discussion point.

that it is.

I'm done.

Yeah, don't take it too seriously.It is also a normal topic of conversation for people who have some sort of heritage from other ethnic backgrounds, so it's nothing new or shocking.It's only odd when some of your friends tell you that they are irish or jamaican, when they were born here and even their parents are second generation.It just puzzles me as to why that happens.

Doesn't everybody have some sort of heritage mixing a whole bunch of ethnic backgrounds?

yeah, like australians are just english criminals.

That's a pretty broad statement to make. How do you know Norma J isn't of aborigine descent?

yes mr. porks but see the thing that happens is this--

i was just watching the deer hunter which features this "ethnic" community of russian americans (or is it rusyns? im trying to find out).

one thing that happens to immigrants in this country is that for survival reasons they tend to band together and create these micro universes. you have a chinatown and a "little italy" in new york, and these is where once upon a time these people lived. same with many other cities in america.

as people live together they tend to maintain a lot of their language, traditions, foods, religious practices, etc. they publish their own newspapers and have their own political action groups and their own interests.

think of cuban exiles in miami, they are still "cuban", and though there are new generations that don't give a shit about fidel, i can guarantee you they have a sense of identity as "cubans", a larger one perhaps as "latinos", and an overarching sense of being "americans".

of course these differences might fade over time but not enough time has passed yet to erase the traces of these... micro-nations. i don't know many italian americans who are protestant, for example...

one funny thing that's happening, i think, is that with this support of multiethnic identities a lot of people are "recovering" their lost heritages. now, don't ask me what that means, but that's what's happening. there is something about that discussed in in toffler's "the third wave" but i didn't pay too much attention to that chapter. oh yes, it's about the dissolution of the nation-state, and the return to local identities (like the italian paese). often times though this identity is not so much geographical as some sort of... internet phenomenon, almost.

now while nations with a stronger cultural identity might absorb other groups, the united states are not the presumed "melting pot" of cultures they've been delcared to be, but actually a salad bowl where bits of broccoli mix with bits of carrot and a spinach leaf and a chunk of bacon, etc.

this coupled with a higher tolerance for religious and other freedoms allows this "multicultural" scenario we have today. where french schoolgirls are banned from wearing a headscarf in public schools, here the law protects the right of muslim women to wear headscarves in school and at the workplace, for example.

the english people i've met as well tend to be quite uniform in their thinking and their ethos-- they've display these highly codified behaviors, and notions of right and wrong. i know there is a tradition of english eccentrics carrying the culture forward, but this is probably in opposition to the uniformity of everyone else-- everyone knows what's expected of them and your whole life is scripted for you according to your class, education and geographical location. now i don't intend to offend anyone with these observations, and if i am please let me know.

in america however there is a greater diversity of people and social mobility, a sense that you should mind your own business and stay clear of other people, and more of an uncertainty about what's acceptable and what's not-- so you need lawyers to define that for everyone. and in this atmosphere of social laissez-faire, social cohesiveness is lost and a lot of subcultures tend to develop in place. how important these are i don't know, but there seems to be room for any kind of peculiar lifestyles and religions in this vast vast country.

let me say this though--i'm not at all into identity politics, i do not let my culture be limited by my place or my geography, and i don't give a shit about belonging to any particular group, unless pushed-- that' s my choice. but i can't deny that a lot of people tend to identify to whatever tribes they belong to, and this seems to be very imporant to them. why exactly, is beyond my understanding, but that's how it is how it is how it is how it is.

Wow, that seemed antagonistic.

My post was towards Porkmarrass' post and I guess everybody elses in here who made the same remarks.

Each of your grandparents would have came from somewhere, most likely seperate countries, hence going down the line you have alot of heritage in you.

i'm sorry, i had to say it. i was laughing my ass off as i typed it. of course i was referring to captain cook and his convicts back in the 18th century. i think it was the 18th century.

"it all began in africa..."
i suppose i'm partly-african then as well, just like everyone else here.

oh, who cares.... wasn't this thread just about getting drunk anyway? i skipped that, maybe next year.

i think it's about the 2nd war of independence-- america's "i'll do what i fucking want" vs. england's "that's not proper" -- or something

It's not an insult to me. I think it's neat. The only thing I detest is how the natives were treated. I couldn't care less about being called a convict.

Do you ride a kangaroo to work?

Pffft. Don't be so stupid.

We ride Emu's.

You beat me to it, we all come from Africa. I don't consider myself Mexican, just an American queer. But I could give a shit about being identified as such.

saw the stooges at stubb's, they were just incredible...

Nursed a hangover, watched the rugby, (fucking dissapointing, exciting though) refrained from contemplating my ethnic identity (100% Irish, but south dublin suburban which is a big nothing in the identity stakes).

Suspect its a matter of creating a coherent identity, trying to boil down to something that can be fit inside the head (I'm Irish. I'm a good person. I like chicken, but not that much). Not really a problem unless it gets out of hand. Fakeing an Irish accent on paddy's day fine. Funding the IRA not fine.

Also a bit of fun. Tacky, cheesy, mildly-irritating fun.

belated happy paddys day to all sonicfolk everywhere be you irish, american, italian american, irish anglo american italian arab, irish american italian alnglo saxon jew arab, chinese anglo american irish jew spanish etc etc etc etc etc........

and for the record, the line of foreign ancestry and the ability to call yourself a different nationality than your own stops after the grandparent!

in hindsight, its a great compliment to our very small and wierd nation that someone from america, a great country (it is, no arguements) would be proud to call themselves irish! just dont drink green guiness and listen to u2!!!

shame about the rugby but what about the cricket!!!!!!!!!!!

ok, what about that episode of the soprano's where tony and pauly went to italy and the difference between them and italians gave rise to humour?
or for example my cousin who has grown up in spain, he speaks english with an english accent but the way he speaks sounds outdated because he's grown up only speaking english to his parents and so he speaks like they do. his outlook on life and mannerisms are not like an english person at all either, he's much more like a spaniard, yet both his parents are british and he holds a british passport. what i'm getting at is that even though one may be able to legitimately be able to claim heritage to one culture or another, it doesn't mean you're really a part of that culture unless you grow up in it.
i.e. expat nationals often don't bear much of a resemblence to the peoples of their "home" nation after having spent a significant amount of time elsewhere, particularly if that time was during their formative years

Amen. No other person has put my point accross better than this.

oy, porks, it's quite easy to agree with the obvious. that sopranos episode when pauly refuses the food and asks for some "gravy" is absolutely hilarious. i agree with that post too for what it's worth. and let me add that from the point of view of latin americans, u.s. "hispanics" are a bunch of uncultured freaks who are destroying the spanish language.

however--

you can't regulate from an internet pulpit how millions of people choose to think about themselves. the chicago river will be dyed green every year regardless of what you or toilet or other english people think--




the thing is, your logic doesn't travel well across the atlantic, because you guys don't understand america & americans. sure your logic is correct within the confines of your context and experience, but why do english people assume that everyone else shares their point of view? it's a matter of perspective, not of absolutes, and it takes a bit more than good rhethorical abilities to comprehend that. now im not saying that americans are great at understanding anyone else's perspective either. they suck at it! but this provides me an opportunity for many laughs. in any case, millions of people who have never even set foot in ireland still call themselves "irish" today and, while this seems absurd to you, it makes perfect sense to them.

Dead.
On.

You have nothing to do with where you are born; it's just a given. Big deal.
And yes, I think it's ridiculous for a fifth-generation American to be talking about their hot temper being attributed to "being Italian" or their love of drink to "being Irish." There is a point at which you are simply too far removed from the "old country" to have any real claim on it.

sure, except that a lot of your neighbors still think of themselves as 'norwegians" or the children of vikings or...