That’s just Guest. He’s a wanker. And Genteel Death. Two of the most pretentious fucks to ever grace this forum, and their troll timer went off. Guest got super mad once when I told him he was acting like a 21-year-old (which he was, at the time at least) but seems dead set on proving that he is, in fact, his age. Just humorless, graceless, nagging self-righteous snobbery.

Don’t feel bad, but yeah... kinda felt a little WTF for a moment, reading Guest’s gloriously mature response to my conplimenting his taste in music, and then coming in here to see this.

What happened anyway? I love Common! He’s not doing anything new, but he made one of my favorite hip-hop albums of 2016! I love Talib’s old shit, and his new shit’s fine by me. Just because they’re done shocking me doesn’t me I have anything against them. Called them both legends, didn’t I?

Was it because I said he wasn’t still evolving? Well, he’s been in it for 25 years. I think he’s free to rest on his laurels a bit. And his last album was his best in YEARS.

Anyway, whatever.

Did you like Electric Circus? Funnily enough, I think Common wanted to update his sound on that one, and I kinda think it sucks.

I don’t hate it, but it didn’t get much play from me after the year of its release, if I remember correctly. Resurrection, Be and Black America Again are my faves.

Resurrection is the best. Be is great. I like Someday... As well.

The production on BE kinda sucks, but Common is good.

(hahahaha?)

Actually, I've been starting every morning with the title track.

Seriously, no joke, I can't image how impoverished my ears would be if it weren't for Kanye. Kanye-worship makes all the sense in the world.

Really confused about what you’re saying right now but if you’re fuckig with me please stop.

“Be (Intro)” is a GREAT wake-up track. I’ve done the same thing, assuming you’re serious.

Of course I'm serious. My only beef with "Be" is that it's a bit too short, but that just gives me an excuse to listen to it again. (And Kanye produced "Get By" which might be Talib's best track.) So no, not fucking around at all.

Album or song too short? Both, I say. And yes. Agreed. Be was an album of transformation for Kanye, or perhaps realization. Came into his own as a producer, really defined the sound of the album. Also, of course, a defining moment for Common.

I feel like there’s another path Kanye could have taken, where instead of being on Jay Z and Cam’ron joints, he stuck with artists closer to the (relative) underground, and fashioned a solo career from there instead of from his ties with Roc-a-fella and so on. I wonder what that solo career would have looked like, if his audience had been just a little bit smaller, the expectations a little less... uhm, global... Sometimes I look at Black Mill and think, “that’s where he’d be.”

Either way, I’m glad he did what he did. There are plenty of folks who loathe him, but he’s stamped out a place in music history as surely as any artist of the millennium has. And he’s made a lot of people’s ears very happy. It warms my heart to hear (read) that your ears would be impoverished if not for him. :)

I mostly meant the song "Be." As a musician, I'm guessing you can appreciate the magic of the intro. The bass part shouldn't be able to flow into the rhythm of the rest of the song, but it does and it's surprising yet satisfying. Tricks my ears every time.


Is that a music thing or a personalty thing? He is a genius. What? He's not supposed to mention that? "I just told you what I thought I was. A god!" Yes. Yes. Fuck them.

And I'm so out of it, I thought he interrupted Taylor Swift at the Grammys. Recently learned it was the fucking Video Music Awards. Big whoop. Get over yourself world and be grateful he allows you to listen to his shit.

I'm not nearly the fan you are. But the tracks I love, I really love and listen to compulsively. "Jesus Walks" alone deserves a Nobel Prize.

maybe I'm a cynic, but I just assume that Kanye and T-Swift are like "in on it" together. The stupid drama stuff. I don't know. It just seems pretty symbiotic. They keep each other on people's mouths. No press is bad press. Etc.

I don't really care. I love them both. I also tend to ignore things like award shows and celeb gossip, TMZ et al.

Back on topic - yeah that intro to "Be" is glorious. I could listen to just the first 30 seconds or whatever on repeat. I also think it's hilarious that John Mayer is given a credit for literally one syllable on this record - ha! And I love that the version of "The Food" that made the album is the live recording from Chappelle Show. Be is seriously just such a cool timestamp of an album. And like Sev mentioned, it's basically the wabbling of the fence for Kanye. Which side to fall off - backpackers or The Roc? Y'know? For a second there he was leaning towards the backpackers and probably would have forever been part of that Blackstar lineage instead of the super famous dude he is now.

This is all hypothetical: but don't you guys think that even if he tried to stay backpack, he would've made something at some point that broke through?

I... don't know.

Like how "popular" has the Chappelle Block Party crowd ever gotten? Like in the mainstream awareness? I think that some people know who Common or Mos Def are... because they've done some acting or whatever. And these are dudes that've been kicking around since the 90's.

So I guess I just think that even if he made something insanely groundbreaking within that world, it would just be big fish/little pond.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy for what I'm trying to express, but I don't know. It's Friday and I'm kind of tired. Ha.

maybe I'm thinking about like Madvillain. I think within the crowd who know, Madvillainy is this absolute classic right? But... who's even heard of it outside of those in the know?

Are you buttering me up because you kinda fucked with me yesterday? Cuz it’s working. :)

Hoenslfy from my experience it’s a personal thing. Most folks I know who have any interest in music at all will tell you the same boring thing: “As a person, I don’t like him, but his music’s good.”

Like that’s a novel concept or something? Yeah, you and everyone. Also, you don’t know him so how can you “not like him as a person?” You can not like his public antics, but you don’t know shit about who he actually is.

I also think he’s a genius, and not inna Hendrix way or a Lennon way, but more in a... Warhol way? I dunno. He synthesizes a creative process, and everything that goes into it, even if the individual element is engineered by someone else (Hudson Mohawk, Mike Dean, etc.), Kanye’s the one who says, “cool idea, but this is how I want to use it for this effect.”

Not that it’s always that way. He’s perfectly capable of making every creative decision on a project from lyrics to beats to production to art, but as his profile has grown, so has the size of the arena. What he did with his “Rap Camp” on MBDTF is an arfistic achievement of the highest degree. He has an ability to sort of “collage” sounds and ideas into *feelings,* so even when he’s calling some white girl a bitch or saying disgusting sex stuff, what you walk away with is an emotional button that has been pushed in a very satisfying way.

Yeah, it was the dumbass VMAs, not the Grammys. Oddly, a lot of people don’t know that. Who gives a shit? Also, he was 100% right. Beyoncé’s video was better and so was her song. Not even a contest.

That moment is pretty widely seen as either a sick burn or a colossal fail, but it kickstarted a conversation that is ongoing to this day about institutional racism in award shows. *shrug*

Have you seen the video where he says that? That, “I told you what I was, a god!” thing? He actually drills into some pretty serious shit in that rant. “Would it have been better if I’d said I’m a ni**er?” I mean, he says it with venom and sounds like a whiny child, but his points valid. “What you don’t like is the fact that this guy who’s supposed to be a n***er is has the audacity to call himself a god, when a ni**er is all he should ever be” or some such.

Pretty interesting, really.

Also, “Jesus Walks” did win an NAACP songwriting award, which is pretty cool.

Yeah. The songs I love, I fucking love too.

Yesterday I watched a YouTube video of someone covering “Runaway” with a beat made by throwing a DVD of “Bee Movie” into the toilet and flushing it. But it still got my blood up. That is quite possibly the greatest song of the millennium.

it's the reason Ghostface could re-use all those MF Doom beats on Fishscale. Because even though those were old beats to "us," the major label rap world had never heard them. I feel like when Ghost started doing work w/ Doom it was like mainstream rap world thought that Ghost had like "discovered" him.

I don't even know what song/video it was that Swifty was winning for. (You know I don't care). But I probably liked it more than "Single Ladies." Not that it matters. It was "Single Ladies" right? Unless it was "Drunk In Love" - that's a different conversation. I forget. And don't care. I'm not even sure why I'm typing this.

Madvillain was huge though. It was all over year-end lists, seeped into Adult Swim culture, was one of the biggest breakthroughs of ‘03.

But yeah, there’s a difference between that level and co-headlining the highest-grossing hip-hop tour of all time with Jay-Z.

Last year he beat Michael Jackson’s record for most appearances in the top 40 for a male solo artist. His concert in 2016 — a relatively low-key year for Kanye-mania compared to, like, 2007 or 2010 or 2013 — was the biggest live show I’ve ever seen. Made The Rolling Stones look like a garage band.

There’s definitely two different levels of hop-hop success (maybe three) and Kanye has... well, honestly, surpassed “hip-hop” success and become a mainstream cultural icon, a la Prince or MJ (now that SFAD isn’t here, I can say that... hahaha!). Common is extremely well-known, but not many average folks know Common songs.

I’m glad he went where he went, because the music he’s made has made my life better.

‘Twas “Single Ladies,” which is a great video and a spank Bank classic for a generation. Also a great song. And Taylor was still in country land at the time, so whatever her song was probably wouldn’t have even appealed to you. The one about Romeo and Juliet I think. Blech.

I have a hard time telling who's famous in what world. Like, I sort of assumed every rap fan knows MF DOOM, but I'm discovering that's not true, especially if they're under 30.


(I didn't fuck with you in a mean way, just an inarticulate way perhaps.)

We could talk about the Kanye stuff I don't care for, if that'll prove my sincerity. I don't think there's a single song on Yeezus that I care for.

Yeah, I've watched the "I told you" interview a few times. He's 100% right. "I sell drugs and pimp bitches." Cool. Here's fame and fortune. "I'm a god." Fuck off darkie.

Seriously, I wonder if anti-Kanye sentiment doesn't have a racist edge to it. Maybe not all the time, but I'm pretty sure it's there.

I *liked* Taylor even then. But yeah, I LOVED her when Red came out.

My wife's a huge Beyonce fan. I'm more casual. I really didn't enjoy an album beginning to end until the self-titled one (that's the "Drunk In Love" one right?). And actually I think Lemonade would be my fav.

But I'm a way bigger fan of Taylor.

At any rate,


you're echoing my statement tho. Yeah it was huge... for which year end lists? I mean "Adult Swim Culture" isn't the same thing as Grammys and TMZ is what I'm saying. Madvillainy was huge for "us" in this nerdy music world. But Doom is not a household name to the people who know who Kanye and Taylor Swift are.

MF's son died and I found out about it here, actually. Can you imagine the reaction if Blue Ivy died? And how the hell do I even know her name? I'm not even a huge fan of either parent.

^right. Kanye, Bey, Jay, Kimmy K and Taylor. Those are famous people. People who don't even like them know all about them.

MF Doom is not famous. He's well known and celebrated within a certain group of music fans. But he's not famous.

Is datpiff really the best place to go for mixtapes? I'd like to listen to every brand new thing every day until something amazing comes out, just so I can say "Yeah, I was fucking with that from day one."

I don't think I've downloaded a mixtape in like 4 or 5 years now. I think most of the major legit tapes just end up on Spotify or whatever.

I don't know what "legit" means. Like, semi-official from someone I'd know?

I mean, wouldn't it have been cool to be one of the first to hear K Dot and say, "I think this kid's onto something?" (I have no idea if his very first mixtape was even a digital download. Just a made up example)

MF Doom is famous, dude. Pitchfork is the most read music “magazine” in he country, and they have videos about him, put his solo and group albums on their lists (to name a site where his lists have appeared), and they blow sunshine up his ass.

He’s not Kanye famous, but he’s famous.
MF Doom is *cult* famous, maybe, but famous nonetheless. His fans are RAVENOUS, and I’m pretty sure the mask is a known thing in music culture overall.

Shrug though

It’s a good site because it’s legitimate. I love getting free music without pirating.
I don’t know that it’s the “best” because I’ve run into a couple things that shouldn’t be on there for free, so I don’t know what the oversight really is.

For example, Kanye’s (awesome) GOOD FRIDAYS singles are collected in an (awesome) single playlist there, but while the singles were free, Kanye did not make a mixtape. So that’s borderline piracy, if only in a technical way.

HotNewHipHop is Ok too.

Again we are saying the same thing. Cult famous and Kanye famous are two totally different things.

S’okay :)


...

WHAT.

Ok, that album takes some getting used to, but dude, it’s worth it. Honesty, I loved it from the first listen, but felt weird about it. It took me some time to have t really get into my bones.

Now, the second half of Yeezus is probably the Kanye I listen to most. More than anything else. From “Hold My Liquor” on. Just amazing. “Bound 2” has that corny chorus and it sounds so corny at first, but then it seeps into you. There’s a lot of sadness going on in that album, and I think it’s absoltely PEAK Kanye, right up there with MBDTF, the best TLOP moments, and Graduation.

“Guilt Trip,” man. “Blood on the Leaves!!” Fucking “send it up” ... AAAAH! Change your mind!!


Oh it’s there.

America has a problem with ANY black persons gaining too much influence. It may be subconscious, but pitchfork impulse is to strike them down. Look at Obama. Or, y’know, MLK, Malcom X, etc. Racism is inextricably linked to anti-Kanye sentiments.

NO WE ARE ARGUING!!!

Lol

Really though, I think I struggle with who is and isn’t famous in hip-hop too.

Maybe because by the time Madvillainy came out, that was probably the poppiest album I bought that year. In the early-‘00s I was just scooping up Black Dice and Wolf Eyes and Tarantula Hawk records and looking for the next Sonic Youth. So my perspective is probably skewed.

Since we’re all Sonic Youth/indie/underground/whatever-the-fuck fans here — noisenicks and weirdos — I’m sure I’m not alone in this.

Like, it was WEIRD when I got so into Kanye because the last time I got THAT into someon THAT big was fucking Nirvana. Ever since then, I’ve been more open to more popular artists, and I think that’s a really good thing. But my whole perspective on what is and isn’t popular is probably a little jacked

I used to think Wu-Tang was the Beatles of hip-hop. Or ATCQ. But as “big” as either of those groups were, they were nothing like Kanye, Drake, Kendrick (circa 2017, Kendrick is unfathomably popular to me... so popular that people like guest just don’t listen to his music because they think it will be boring... how weird is that?), and I’m not sure when the era of pop-level hip-hop stars really started.

Don’t say 2pac or Biggie because they both had to die before their albums went diamond.

Maybe Eminem? Eminem and Jay-Z? Those two kind of kicked it into a new gear, making hip-hop something white girls wanted to listen to.

Anyway. Not sure what my point it, but I think if Drake as a failure and he’s huge. Just loathed by a lot of critics (and myself). I consider DRAM fleetingly, insignificantly popular, but how many SoundCloud followers does he have?

I don’t know man.

If it helps, I have no idea what this means.


I tuned out of mainstream pop culture in, like, 1996. Not saying that to be hip. Just happened. Went to a tiny private school that made it difficult, and once the cord was cut I never really plugged back in.

I remember being at some chick's place and she had a Denis Rodman book. I think he was naked on the cover or something. I was like, "Who's that crazy guy?" She didn't believe me. I told her I don't follow basketball. She said that didn't matter, and I was either lying or retarded.

But some rap cut through. Eminem certainly. Maybe mostly because I actually heard his music. Now it's your turn to not believe me, but until late last year, I never heard a Kanye song, at least not being aware of it. But I knew who he was.

I knew maybe three, four Jay-Z songs somehow. Maybe a 50 Cent or two. That might be it as far as rap goes.

The stuff is actually easy to avoid without trying. You do realize most people don't even have a music collection at all? Maybe one country compilation on cassette is some desk drawer and that's about it.

Where would most people hear, say, Kendrick's latest anyway? The drive to work is either talk radio or silence. Then work. Then drive home with talk or silence. Then sitcoms, or sports, or police dramas for TV, then bed.

Drive to work, work, driving around to various assignments, and the drive home from work is where I do like 90% of my listening, so we have different habits.

Oh, me too.

I meant other people. I think most people prefer talk; some even drive in silence. (!!!) I just think for the vast majority of Americans, there really isn't a space to be exposed to new music unless one makes a slight effort, and "fame" just means a name pierces through somehow, usually for a non-music related stunt like interrupting a VMA speech.

Yeah.

Thing is, everybody likes music. Everyone. But not everyone, like, *needs* music. I can’t fucking imagine my life without the definitive songs and artists and albums, and I constantly seek out new ones. But I’m a neurotic, borderline obsessive-compulsive feelings hound. I think a lot of people just listen to what’s convenient to listen to, and streaming makes that an even more effortless, thoughtless process.

More people probably know Kanye by name and action than by his music, if we’re being honest.

More people know Kurt Cobain as the poor man who took his life blah blah than know “Scentless Apprentice,” that’s for goddamn sure.

yeah dude that's what I was getting at. I'm not even talking about "the music," but "the person" or the "the idea of the person." That's FAMOUS. Kurt is famous.

If I showed my mom a picture of Kanye and said "who's this?" she'd either say Kanye West, or Kim K's husband. She prob wouldn't be able to name a song. But she's know who he IS.

If I showed my mom a pic of MF Doom in his mask, she'd prob guess he was from The Avengers movies or something.

Lol.

Your mom would probably be able to name a song. My mom can. Being an aging liberal academic, she at least hears *about* things like the “Diamonds from SL” remix tackling the diamond trade, or “Blood on the Leaves” audaciously using “Strange Fruit” as a sample.

Also, one year I sent her “Hey Mama” as part of a Mother’s Day gift. Lol.

El Guapo was IN-famous

I will bet good money that my mom could not name a song. I'll ask her next time I see her.

the only Kanye song most white folks over 40 know is the golddigger track