Oh. I see. The middle class is to blame for anybody being poor.
I might as well give every other paycheck to my high school drop-out buddy with a baby.
That would be fair.

the american dream is that NO ONE is ever finished. redemption and second chances abound.

even a high school dropout can, THROUGH HARD WORK AND DETERMINATION, become a master of industry, or a leading politician, or a famous star, or whatever pinnacle of their chosen profession.

How did you get that out of what I said? I said the upper class enforces poverty by convincing the middle class that anyone who is poor is poor because they're not working hard enough, which is false.

Case in point: "high school drop-out with a baby" does not always mean "rightfully poor," but the upper class would like the middle class to believe that is always the case. (And in no way did I imply that it applies to everyone who is poor. Some people are just lazy.)

Also, I'm not saying that anyone who is in the upper class or middle class is intentionally perpetuating this. It's ingrained in our way of thinking.That is the idea, but the problem is that it's not true for a lot of the population.

its freedom (unless your gay, or not U.S friendly)

To piss is someone's coffee and get away with it.

Yes, rob is the most on point as far as the concept of being rewarded for your hard work goes. Reality, well tis a different matter (insert large ramble that throws around words such as: capitalist,socio-econimic, greedy, oppresive, class,corruption.)

I kind of got the idea what that expression might mean.
it's the fact that unless you're a fucking lazy asshole, you have a high possibility to earn yourself a good career and a decent middle-class life. because there are possibilites to take advantage of. and everything seems so much easier there than anywhere else I've been to...like buying a car, getting a good education and yada yada. you just have to work hard, that's it.
but maybe i just didn't spend a long enough time in the US to get the right point.

Excuse me for being the hermeneut, but I deny that there is any one correct interpretation of the American dream. It is a sock in which people place their own dreams: profit, religious freedom, intellectual freedom, a meaningful future, etc.

But at the end of the day, it still is just a dream.

so are the people who are living on the streets or who are unemployed just lazy? is that it? Is New Orleans a lazy city?

That is exactly the point.

It's just that there are a ton of people who cannot make it work no matter how hard they try. Achieving the American dream does often require luck, or having come from a "well-equipped" family (whatever that might mean, depending on what you're looking at.)

It is only not true in the sense that people keep themselves down, whether by continuing associations that lead to negative things, or by gult or shame at "ditching" people who are otherwise holding you back.
THERE ARE NO MORE EXCUSES.
a poor ass half black half white, raised by a not-too-there mom for a decade then snt to his grandmother in hawaii because his mom did not want him to be raised in indonesia's fucked up violent mysoginist culture (as she saw it) has worked his ass off, and become president.

there are no more excuses.

we are talking about a DREAm here, not reality, not the doldrums of day to day life,. but a dream, a hope, an ideal to strive for and towards, you know?

sure lots stands in one's way, but it is still a good dream I think.

and of course, this applies in many other nations, although INDIA is definitely not one. (caste system. an untouchable will never, no matter how industrious or well-intended, manage to raise himself to an exlated Brahman class type fella.)

I get what you're saying, but I don't believe that at all. It is easier than in a lot of other countries, but that's all. The concept of the "American dream" convinces us to ignore the poor because "they have no excuse," and that is my concern over the whole issue.

your not serious here are you?

pbrad, there is a specific thing which is referred to as the american dream. it is not and was never intended to ba a catch-all for anyone's desires.

dead serious. I ain't laughing.

^Well, yes, the homeless is another issue. While many have legitimate problems and things beyond their control( this actually applies to everyone when you think about it) to warrant their current situation. A lot of homeless folk are their by choice, or lack of making a choice. The US government has all types of aid programs and special services to ''help'' people get food, housing, college degree, medical care, etc... Many of the homeless are basically choosing not to take advantage. everyone has bad times, and yes, your background has a lot to do with where you could start out in the real world, but its non-sense to believe that everysingle homeless person is a victim of anything more than this system which effects all of us.

You may have had a family, you may have been fired, you may lost your house, you may have had countless bad things happen, one after another. Escaping with the help from crack and meth won't help you with any of it.

I've seen you rant before against the promise of heaven after death as an opiate of the people.

If these are both dreams, what saves the former from condemnation?

ok, i get the stuff about possibilities and ideals (and quite admire it) but you cant say that homeless people (for instance) are there because they are lazy and deserve to be? Or that the only reason people aren't rich is because they dont work hard enough?

This entire thread is evidence against your assertion.

Read my post.

so stop whingeing and go get a job? good dream.

I think that is exactly right.

when I was young, married, earning $7 an hour with my then-wife earning $6 an hour, I woudl think myself poor, but I paid my bills, I lived in a home with carpet, and central air an heat, I had a stove and a fridge and relative seciruty. I had a car, a TV, a video game system, records, and maybe, just maybe, a bit of money to spend on ganja eevery few months. I would look around and marvel sometimes at the way I saw everything, because I have relatives in puerto rico who woudl consider my then-situation to be anIDEAL to strive for, but it was something I looked down upon, in my youth and stupidity. There are peopel in the world, MANY people in many many nations , who work their asses off all their lives and never even get close to the "comfort" and "stability" which I used to see as SHIT.

I completely agree. However, I think it's extremely important to keep an eye on those who can't help themselves. I think it is more destructive to focus on the lazy people who deserve to be poor, than to ignore those who don't.

The way I see it is: Why would you sit on the shore to debate whether a man is actually drowning, or just faking it?

i posted before i saw your post, i was replying to Rob

no it is not. it is evidence that people are just answering what their own personal dreams are.

And they're all wrong and you are right?

Yes pbradley.

The american dream comes true every single day

when you see people born to the worst poverty, who work hard and become someone they can be proud of. when you see immigrants who sell their property, belongings, and even their "soul" to come to the usa to work hard and start a business and become self-sufficient and provide for their kids
when you see someone who learns to read at age 40, and proceeds to get a Masters degree from college and become something, when you see a shit ass hood rat bust his ass to create a music empire. fuck man, it is all around you

I take back everything I said and rebuke all past correct definitions...The American Dream is:

you are taking it to exterems. the goal is not to become rich. few get to do that. it is to be in control of your own life, to earn enough to not cry because you have no idea where your children;s next eal is coming from, much less your own.

of course there is homlessness and pain and sosrrow and injustice. the world's not perfect. the "dream" si that one can, through hard work and dedication, rise above it.

there are many reasons people become homeless, and may homeless do not sdtay homeless forever. they work and eventually pullthemselves up. there ARE a TON of homeless that are mentally ill. thay cannot help what they do, or why they are there and they need help from us who are luckier.
there are also LOTS of lazy ass motherfuckers who choose to stay homeless because there is no responsibility i it, and they like it that way.

nothing can be painted with one brush.

All momentary. The foreign worker loses his job to out sourcing to his homeland, the business fails when the recession rolls into town, the Master's degree is useless, the music empire goes bankrupt.

The American dream is exposed as a fraud every single day. Looking at the best cases will not resolve the worst.

Optimism has its place, but not when it's convincing people to treat all under- and lower-class citizens as lazy motherfuckers. It deadens compassion and says, "You just need to work harder" instead of offering a hand.

thats my problem. that implies that if you haven't risen above it, then it's your fault. you're the lazy one. I dont agree with that.

you guys are adding to it.

the american dream is a dream, and ideal, something to strive for. as with all things, it can be used to uplift or it an eb used (by callous assholes) to denigrate and ignore those suffering.

that is a whole other issue.

to say that, if you work hard enough you can achieve some measure of success, is not the same as saying those who have not gotten the "success" must be lazy fucks who do not work hard.

that is faulty logic, and an old rhetorical trick.

Yeah Rob, but that type of populist ideal is everyone's dream, even after you finished dreaming of destroying those who don't agree with your nice but dubious intentions.

I mean, clearly we have the same ideal in mind--we would both like to seek out the most uplifting philosophy. No one is doubting that. But when people do need a helping hand, the American dream ideology has a tendency to make the well-off (middle- and upper-classes) hesitant to help.

Like, when I see a homeless person asking for money, I always feel bad that my first thought is "I wonder if he really needs it." And more often than not, I don't help because I assume the person is probably just lazy. And while there are deeper principles involved in that specific case (give a fish vs. teach to fish, etc.), I think that is an unhealthy default. It's a personal struggle against the mindset that, I believe, is rooted in the concept of the American dream.

Okay. I thought you said this "ideology" is what caused the middle class to oppress the poor. But regardless, upper class or middle class, how are poor people oppressed?

They're (sometimes, of course) treated as lazy and ignored when they actually do need help.

I think there are plenty of programs and volunteer organizations that help out enough. I don't know... I guess you don't.