I think that's the problem. However it may have started is largely besides the point.It's picked up its own momentum and agenda since then.

That's why I'm so careful not to turn my interest in the subject into anything that might be deemed as romanticising it. Even people who speak out about it can find themselves wallowing in that world. It all becomes very voyeuristic. That or a means to illustrate their own preconscribed grievances against 'the man'. It's a complex issue and, like all complex issues, it doesn't have a simple solution.

Wow, a great thread here.
I've always been quite fascinated with the US street gang thing and I will most likely end up buying that "Monster" book that floatingslowly posted in the beginning of the thread.
I was wondering ... is there something like that going on in other US cities too? Meaning, street gangs that control certain areas of the city, fight rival gangs, etc etc.

Yeah, that's something I was wondering too. The news media, at least in Europe, seems to concentrate on Los Angeles as though gang activity doesn't exist in any other part of the country. That plus bands like NWA, Compton's Most Wanted and films like Colors all focusing on LA.

Someone, I think it was Floating, mentioned the Gotti gang in New Orleans but I'd never heard of them until then. I'm sure it must be in all parts of the country but it's never reported like that.

The nearest we have in England is the football 'firms' but they're pretty small now and besides, never had that much power in the first place. Like the LA Gang culture though, football hooliganism has inspired tonnes of books and films that clearly wallow in the whole thing, while pretending to condemn it.

I was trying to find out if there was something like that going existing in Baltimore when I lived there for a short period of time, but I was told there was nothing like a concentrated gang activity - it was more of a disorganized bunch of crack dealers and small gang units.

Have you read David Simon's book Homicide, which the series The Wire was based on? That goes into massive detail about gangs in Baltimore. I don't remember it mentioning individual gangs like Bloods or Crips, so much as pockets of kids working for certain dealers who will run up against other rival dealers.

If you're interested specifically in Baltimore, get that book. It's incredible and in many ways far better than the series.

oh, thank you sir. noted for later purchase.
Baltimore was a tough place. I was recommended not to visit some particular places by any means. You don't get that kind of recommendation in mainland Europe very often (i'm not that sure about UK though).

The worst place I've heard about in America is Detroit, parts of which seem to be completely fucked. I've never been but have a friend who married someone from there and was totally shocked when she went.

There's nowhere really like that in the UK. There's obviously areas within a lot of inner cities that tourists wouldn't want to go to, but to be honest there wouldn't be any reason for them to visit those places anyway.There are certain notorious estates which at night might get a bit sketchy, but nothing where I think you'd find yourself fearing for your life unless you were either really stupid or really unlucky.

I've heard of Newham in London, am I right?

Yeah, lol. That's where I'm from!

Parts of it are pretty bad but nothing like what I hear about Compton or parts of Baltimore or Detroit. You're more likely to die of utter boredom in Newham than you are in a drive by.

yeah, drive-by shootings, that's what the part of Baltimore called "Inner city" was infamous for.
anyways, sorry for that Newham reference. I didn't know you were from that place ... if I did, I wouldn't have brought it up ;)

No, it's just funny because it's not somewhere that has a massive profile. Either way, I don't live there any more.

I think there's somthing similar with these teenage gangs in the UK nowadays. It seems to be mainly London. Of course it's a much on a smaller scale and they only really seem to be using knives but when you hear about them in the news they have proper names and territories and although they might not be proper organisations selling drugs or doing whatever it does seem like it could develop into a more significant problem.

There seems to be a bit of a copy-cat culture, especially within predominantly black and asian gangs, in looking to America for an identity. So yeah, I can see things following the American example, at least in terms of attitude. It's all quite depressing really.

actually, if crips begin to look back at their origins in truth, they can return to the ideals, and perhaps go back to some Panther shit rather than some bullshit. At least thats what I preach at the liquor store when I'm in the hood.. it should be about some Panther shit like soup kitchens and neighborhood restoration. niggaz should be on the block painting trim and picking up trash, not getting into shit all day.



floating.. the wiki story is what all those youngsters said was their story and that has become the text book story, but the OG versions which I have heard say that the first folks to join these Baby Avenues were mixed up as youngsters with the Panthers, and were involved with both gang and community activites, both jacking people for the Panthers and doing community service. This is the foundation of the CRIPS, as the lil homies runnin around with the Panthers until all the Panthers were either killed, locked up or scattered. The Baby Avenues story is only part of it, whats missing from that Wiki entry is what motivated and influence all the OTHER youngsters to join up with Crips to begin with, and that was their previous activities and experiences with the Panthers. The CRIPS didn't blow up because those handful of founding youngsters were so cool, it was because it was a bunch of people related initially to the Panthers.. in a sense that first generation of Crips was an extension and continuation of the people who were organized with the LA panthers, but since there were no more LA panthers to guide them, all they had to get into was bullshit.. and we know for a fact that CIA/FBI were all over the neighborhoods in this time, so we can also know that they were involved in corrupting these youngsters away from Panther ideals towards drugs and gang violence..

For what reason would the CIA or FBI do that?

^^^ to finance the war in vietnam with cheap and powerful heroin from southeast asia.


I would image that you aren't the first idealist to preach the good word in the hood. it never seems to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0YVj4pVHhk

From an outsiders perspective, it strikes me that American society would require a massive ideological overhaul in order for it to find a solution to the problems you're discussing here. As it is, gang/drug culture is merely an unofficial mirror of what is taking place officially on a corporate level and the 'good word' is as meaningless to a bunch of crack dealers as it is to a boardroom full of CEOs.

I lived in orange county during the riots in '92. I could look north and see pillars of smoke everywhere.

other than a minor incursion into hollywood, it pretty much stayed in south central LA.

I remember watching people burn down their own neighborhoods and the VERY FEW stores that were still open there.

although it felt like a revolution, I kept thinking "they're doing it wrong".

unfortunately I know.. they have been shutting down goodie goodies like my since Marcus Mosiah Garvey stood in Harlem in 1919... but I remain hopeful that even a little good can go a long way, after all, the only reason we exist today is the few good actions of the people before us, it is not the bad that preserves our existence, but the minority of good. keep the the faith or there is nothing to live for, and I am in the hood one way or the other so I might was well spread the love.. till they check my pass and kick me out you know?

SuchFriendsAreDangerous, did either of LA's old trollycar companies have lines running through these neighbourhoods?

It was to arm and supply the Hmong guerrillas - do you have a better way to fund a 30,000 man strong militia - and before that the KMT 5th Army that retreated south to the Shan States while the rest of Chiangs forces fled to Taiwan.
The Hmong didn't fare well out of this, as they turned increasingly to growing opium cash crops rather than food crops they became more and more dependent on the Americans to the point where in the 1970s villages wanting to stop because they were reduced to sending old men and boys to join the army the response would be to threaten to cut the USAID supplies being flown in by CIA logistics front companies (Air America, etc) - a death sentance on account of having no harvest stored.
Later they faced fierce retribution from the Communist forces.
The money was laundered through the Nugan Hand Bank in Sydney Australia, it employed an awful lot of CIA and military men in its offices around the world and didn't do a whole lot of banking.
Further reading: Politics of Heroin 2nd edition by Alfred W. McCoy.

yes, the red car went right through the middle of South Central, as it does today in its new reincarnation, the Blue Line light rail.. that is how I pass through the hood daily, as a matter of fact my grandpops used to jump on the Red Car near his pad on 45th street and Long Beach Ave and I go to church on 46th and Long Beach Ave (the Blue line runs parallel to Long Beach Ave from Watts to Vernon)

Interesting stuff...

..Only showing this week is at 3am ?! It'll get uploaded sooner or later..

I do wonder a lot why the hell he hasn't just moved away.

This documentary looks interesting.

These two rivals are a rough bunch, but I always had the impression that MS 13 were the ones that were taking thuggery to another level in Cali... and beyond. These cutthroats have spread worldwide.
I could've sworn seeing a group of 4 walking down my street recently. Facial tattoos and all.

Time to arm myself.

fuck all these pathetic assholes. wipe them off the face of the earth.

^^^ mara salvatrucha (now) take their orders from the mexican mafia (La eMe). the "13" at the end of "MS" denotes this (the 13th letter of the alphabet being "M").

and yeah, these guys are hard. a large portion of their original ranks witnessed military action in el salvador. they moved to LA and applied that knowledge to the streets.

I'm in. Add the Albanian maffia and runaway Serbian war criminals to that list.
Irradicate this cancer once and for all!

absolutely accurate synopsis! seriously, I rather enjoyed it..

except for two points, I don't live in Watts/South Central(though there are a few guns around the neighborhood I do live in as well), its where I go to church regularly and on weekdays, its where a few of my friends live, and its also part of any commute across town, as the necessary metro line runs through those neighborhoods. and you forget, I don't drive through them, I walk through them, I take the bus/rail to get around to church and to my peoples spots, and so I am on foot. I've become rather familiar in a few neighborhoods there, perpetually "hey Rastaman" even now with a fade..

perhaps 3-5 times a week I am in the Watts/South Central area. I am not proud of that shit that goes on there at all but I am ever the optimist, I believe that something can actually be done about all this. that is why I have been working with volunteer org around LA, and I am talking with some gang/community outreach centers in those neighborhoods to get more involved there, do a little more then chill out, contribute a little more, and get that Marcus Garvey ball rolling again..


"E-T-H-I-O-P-A, ityopya your are the best, above them all, I must confess..."

Indeed. A militant background is something to be reckoned with, floatingslowly.

thing is i have been to south central LA and those places mentioned and they where not like that at all. they seemed actually quite nice. compton was pretty leafy and didnt seem rough at all. as where most of the other places. then again in vancouver the places where a lot of violence occurs are generally quite nice too and there have been over 40 shhotings this year.

these are all the cats I grew up and got into trouble with and make up that list of my peoples who have been shot or killed. I grew up with southsiders and I personally live in southside neighborhoods, so that is another part of the politics of daily living, but mexicans are easy folks to deal with if you understand their vibes, and further they tend to be the most reverent gangsters you meet..

it wasn't until I started running with old school big dreads a few years back that I got broken off with the black gang history/culture first hand. then I started to go to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church in South Central and my religiosity has been bringing me in those neighborhoods very often for a good while now. It is only recently that I finally found some opportunities and inspiration to do anything about all the bullshit..

this thread was just inspired by watching that documentary recently, I couple of my peoples around town also seen it and it got them equally rowdy..

they are the symptom and not the disease.

I pity them, even if their actions may make them not so deserving of it.

not everyone can pack up and move from the leafy green lawns of south central.

not everyone who is raised in such environs CHOOSES to lead a violent life of crime either.

that's true, but not everyone in that violent life of crime is given a choice.

I suppose it depends on how much it bothers you having yr family killed instead.

I stumbled upon this doc on PBS last night. Excellent. This particular filmmaker has a way of making me interested in subjects I'm not already interested in. Gangs, surfing, skateboards.

Watching it right now. What a great movie.

Just finished watching it. Excellent!
Stacy Peralta nails it by going back in history to pinpoint
exactly where the system failed. Well executed and daring.