if there is then sure. takes the edge off.

I feel like I'm in a sweat lodge.

Abelard is a gem of Western Theology..

Luther and Calvin are precisely the problem with Western Theology, they replaced mysticism with academic intellectualism. The Spirit is not found in the Mind, just as you don't judge the feeling of music with the intellect, as we in Rastafari say, "Who feels it knows it"
John Chrysostum is some remarkably spiritual material, like much of the early Church Fathers writings, it is far to spiritual and mystical to be understood on academic or intellectual terms. It is almost a kind of guided meditation, meant to be experienced far more than understood. That was entirely my point above, about the difference between Western intellectual theology and Eastern (be it Near East Christianity/Islam or Far East Hindu/Buddhist/Shinto) spiritual theology, one is meant to be understood like an algebra equation, and the other is meant to be experienced like music or wine. You can talk all you like about wine, but its real joy is in drinking the glass...

But, the only problem with feelings it that THEY lie. It's easy to make someone feel just about anything, even when coming from someone who may not be sincere. Consider con artists...they make rich women feel love and others loan them money, sometimes offering what feels to be a legitimate feeling of trust. The church, ANY church, is certainly capable of doing the same thing (and I'm not saying they all aim to do this...by any means).

To quote myself:

"As soon an ya trust too much, expect to much, you've already failed".

This isn't to say I don't trust anyone, I just refuse to put all my trust into one person, or better yet, one idea.

suchfriends, i googled st john chrysostum and the search or original texts turned up some dull antisemitic shit. i know it was the times, 20/20 hindsight, etc., yet still it was unpalatable (i happen to like jews). in any case, know any disease-free texts you'd recommend?

to quote myself:

yeah, wine is good.

I think someone probably created us. I think people should be probably good to each other. That's about it. Satanism is the "religion" that makes the most sense to me, though I identify myself as an agnostic.

You are an idiot.

this should do..



I recommend someone more like John of Damascus or Saint Augustin or Gregory of Nyssa myself, but I do enjoy John Chrysostom. All the early Church Fathers were brilliant and they have some ridiculously insightful things to say, but you must read through them, and some of them are quite dense. I think John of Damascus comes across as the most readily accessible, but keep in mind that these are deeply religious works, and their insights on more practical matters, while equally eloquent (for example)

( From Gregory of Nyssa ), are peppered in less frequently then their glorious theological discussions. These are no Pat Robertsons or even Billy Grahams, the Church Fathers know their shit. John of Damascus of discusses matters of science and even atheism quite frequently and intelligently, and from an open minded perspective. Not quite vitriolic as John Chrysostum can be, but John of Chrysostum's real gift to the Church was in poetry, hymnals and liturgies, his theological treatises were a bit on the diatribe...

in regards to the jewish discussions, keep in mind that in the 1st-9th centuries, Jewish kingdoms in North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula were potent military and economic threats to their rival Christian powers in Byzantium, East Africa and the Near East. Jews and Christians often sparred for influence, and some of the writings on both camps are rather similar to Cold War propaganda campaigns to either explain or simply demonize the other.

THANK YOU MY BROTHER! GOD BLESS YOU!

I love you and your insults! Feel free to throw more my way, I will love them like a puppy! Here -- need some money? I will donate to you, as well, to keep insulting me. I will pay for your internet connection. I will pay for typing lessons, to help you in insulting me QUICKER.

Basically, I love you and everything you say!

And you are probably right, I mean I did donate thousands of dollars to charity this year, instead of "tithing" to the religion of my choice, so I'm probably idiotic for not trying to buy my way into the Heaven that may or may not exist, but at least I feel like I did something important, working towards something that makes me feel like I did someting decent, in contributing to SOMEONE else, instead of worrying about myself, or worrying about insulting others. I have no need for my money. Life is a lot deeper than the black and white it is mistreated as; I am a highly spiritual person, just not the spirituality that is accepted in most circles. my spirituality is inside me, not from some book that's been edited and revisd 500,000 times. That's my religion, my rules, my commandments: Being good to people, even the ones who disrespect me, because I don't honestly give a fuck how I look to other people, I can sleep sound knowing I did the right thing. For example, I don't feel the need to insult everyone else because I'm not insecure about myself and my place in life. I grew up with nothing -- no one -- no help from ANYONE and I have more to show for my life than anyone I know, because I have used my common sense, GOD'S GIFT -- now I am giving it all away! On the other hand, some people might think I'm being stupid for giving all my money away, getting rid of all my posessions, instead of supporting me on my spiritual journey, but guess what? I, in all reality, probably won't be alive this time next year, and when faced with something like that, you STOP GIVING A FUCK what people think! And in my time of weakness, in my time of need, in my time of everyone trying to convince me otherwise, I won't submit to some bullshit religion made up of judgemental people, just because God would be oh-so "convenient" in my life right now or something. If "Heaven" exists and is made of good people who did good things -- and I'm certainly trying my hardest to be good to everyone -- then why does it even matter what you think? All that matters -- all that EVER matters -- is I did the right thing. So, fuck it. "Heaven", here I come! Or, maybe not. I guess I'll be face to face with whatever it is soon. I'll send you guys a postcard.

Anyway, I thank you and I LOVE YOU, my brother, for taking the 3 seconds you exhausted to try to insult me, for no apparent reason, instead of trying to understand our differences, and trying to actually have a conversation -- instead of explaining yourself. I hope you feel really good about it. I feel really good about being insulted, because your words speak for themselves, and in no way effect me, even the slightest, since your kneejerk reactions were clearly well-thought-out, something I couldn't hope to understand, but I will try my hardest to. My love for you speaks for itself. I love everyone, in fact. THANK YOU ALL! God bless.

I think everyone here knows all too well my spiritual veiws so I will spare you the long post. My basic phillosiphy is to treat other ppl like I want to be treated and love god with all my heart.

and lots a SONIC LOVE

"We love Him because He first loved us."
1 John 4:9-10

OH YOU IDIOT!

YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha.

Just kidding.

I love you, Sonic Gail! This is a wonderful philosophy! You are beautiful!

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18

"It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect. He makes my feet like the feet of a deer; he enables me to stand on the heights. He trains my hands for battle; my arms can bend a bow of bronze. You give me your shield of victory, and your right hand sustains me; you stoop down to make me great. You broaden the path beneath me, so that my ankles do not turn."
Psalm 18:32-36

God: An icy surface anchored in laughter. (hh)

i disagree.

it is:

God. A Surface of ice Anchored in Laughter (HH)

Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are his. He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning. He reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with him.

Seems like he hasn't given you shit for brains.

@sonic lovely lovely lovely those words make me smile<3

don't you be fuckin with Adam...he kicks all yalls asses big time:)

Hevusa: a major dicksnot most of the time but in a slightly fun way

And yet I am happy, even in the face of oncoming death. So, I feel infinitely blessed, knowing I lived a fulfilling and successful life in His image. I hope one day, you will have similar joys. I won't judge you or your vague, unneccessary, misplaced insults, my brother. If you need anything, we are here to help you! Thank you for using your precious time to "insult" me, every word you take many minutes to slowly type is powerful to me! To think, me, a miniscule INSECT in this beautiful world -- and you, making me feel blessed, by contributing your time to me! I love that, THANK YOU BROTHER! You have made me night! I hope I have not somehow wronged you and taken time out of your busy night -- which will surely consist of attempting to insult others in meaningless ways -- but I thank you for the time you have bestowed upon me in your quest to prove infinite knowledge of internet trolldom! I will save a place on my Cloud for you!

you are an idiot.

you would know

i dont see how this figures. im not an agnostic myself. but its not enough to merely say he's an idiot and not provide him with any reasoning for why you think he might be mistaken.

i dont know if you could even do that. since you are just trolling. but he has at least gone to the effort to extend you a similar courtesy and explained himself. so you could try to do the same? without being a troll about it?

Its good havin u back little nicky:)

So, wait, your insanely clever mash-up of my quotes is somehow proof of my apparent idiocy? Like, you're trying to make me appear contradictory, right? Was that what you were trying to do then? Because if so, that means, hahaha, oh god.. I see it now! That means you don't know about agnostic theism! That's so cute. This whole time, you've been trying to make me seem like an "idiot" by contradicting me, like in that little out-of-context misquote there, without actually knowing what agnostic theism is! Haha. I mean, is that right? Because that's the only thing I can figure, for your constant repetition of the response of "you are an idiot." (since anything more than that might break your burned-out brain) -- coming from someone who has never contributed anything meaningful or intelligent to this board, period, mind you -- which actually, by the definition of the word "idiot", makes you, actually, simply, in plain terms, the *shudder* (I hate to use this word) "idiot". How rude. How uncultured! But, alas..

*cough*

Here ya go, sir:

Agnostic theism is the philosophical view that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. An agnostic theist believes the proposition that at least one deity exists is true, but per agnosticism, believes that proposition is unknown or inherently unknowable. The agnostic theist may also or alternatively be agnostic regarding the properties of the god(s) they believe in


...

Sorry if that goes over your head or anything. I know der wuz a lawt of WEALLY WEALLY BEEG WORDZ DERE. And I know it's a really difficult concept to grasp for someone who can only communicate in (non-clever) insults and troll behaviour that makes westernquinoxrox seem like a genius, so you may want to read it a few more times. No, no.. I'll wait. Okay... waiting.. waiting.. you done? Okay, look, the only threads you seem knowledgeable in, or passionate about, are the pot-smoking ones -- which is fine, pot rules, maaaaaaaaan, but your replies suggest maybe there is a reason to keep it illegal (ie: you're a fool). Unfortunately. How ironic (definition: the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning)! You're one of the biggest proponent of pro-legalization and yet your behavior is probably the biggest reason why some people just can't handle the weed!

Stick to your Cheech and Chong movies, DUUUUUUUUUUDE. See, cuz you calling me an idiot is like RuPaul trying to insult someone by calling them a "tranvestite", or something. Nice try, though, and as I've said before, your words speak for themselves. So, "You're an idiot" all day if you want, but leave the grown-up talk to us grown-ups, thanks.

God bless you.

:( .

I hope no one thinks I'm anti-pot-legalization by my post. I quite like pot. It's helped me in my time of need -- as much as God has. Heheh.

I think pot should be legal, but you should only be able to smoke it in bars or in your house. I think you should be able to do ANYTHING in your house, really -- it's no one's business. At least in this town, the cops don't seem to worried about drugs. When I was a landlord and tried to kick that woman out, I let the police know that the woman who wasn't paying me was a big methhead and had people there all day. He said, "We know what she's doing in that house." ... got in his car ... and left. It's almost like cops know these people are destroying themselves, so they don't give a shit, unless it's, like, a rich methhead, who they know they can get money from. Besides, they'd already arrested the big fish, her husband.

That was the most trying, awful, difficult experience of my life. My aunt had died, left me a house, and this woman wouldn't pay because she was too busy doing meth. She sat in a freezing (it was the middle of December; 0 degrees out) and she sat there with no heat, no electricity, nothing.. all day long... smoking meth. Hadn't bathed in months. I had to pay $100 to have a warrant to get her kicked out, and it still took 3 months to get her kicked out completely. She had more rights than I had! When they FINALLY served papers on her, she destroyed everything in the house, selling the refrigerator, water heater, even copper wiring! Then, I had to go to court about 20 times, since she kept missing court dates, kept saying she didn't have to pay anything. This was 16 months ago; she had to pay $1610. But interest has kept building up -- naturally, she hasn't paid a dime -- so it's probably, who knows, $2500 now maybe? Probably more.

She'll have to pay it, or she won't be able to legally rent a house. Also, if she gets pulled over or whatever, she's going straight to jail. It's something that's going to have to haunt her the rest of her life....

...and me, too. My life was threatened at the time, by one of her tough-guy meth-head friends. In fact, she had many, many friends who looked and acted like zombies, but knew where I worked. I had tires slashed. I had a note left on my car. I went to the police about all this, and they acted like they couldn't care less.

It isn't over. It never will be.

So, what got me through? My faith. Not really my "religion"... not me being a "Christian"; moreso, my faith that there's more to this world than, well, this world. And because of recent events regarding my health and so on, I've realized that, eh, I die, I die. Fuck it. I'm kinda just ready for this TO end, finally.

There have been moments in my life where I've truly felt some kind of divine intervention... like, someone or somebody trying to tell me something.. going back to the "do you believe in ghosts?" thread, there has been some TRULY strange, unexplainable things that have happened to me... as I said then, also, we'rre not supposed to understand everything. Not everything in life makes sense.

So, I think I believe in God -- or something. Whatever is "out there", he's helped me get through some tough times. And I'm kinda excited to meet him.

So, fuck anyone that tries to insult me -- your opinion is no better or worse than mine. But I've had to fight for everything I've had, notihng has ever just been given to me, my family consists of me, my mom, and my grandpa. There's really nothing left for me out there. I could take the easy way out and call "god" an asshole, for taking everything away from me. That's probably what an "idiot" would do. But I truly feel there's more out there, something beautiful waiting for me on the other side. At least I hope so.

you contradict yourself. which makes you an idiot.

here have some help: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/agnostic

He said "probably", you stupid sack of piss. That's not a contradiction.

Yeah, hevusa, in your continuing quest to dig yourself into a hole of total and absolute stupidity, you could have at least misquoted me or done another one of those awesome quote mash-up things you did earlier, and took out the "probably". See, because, now -- and thank you, Joe, for pointing it out and saving me the trouble -- it totally negates your entire point, since "probably"/"maybe"/"possibly"/etc isn't, nor has ever been, "DEFINITELY", and therefore, there was no contradiction in my original opinion. Of course there's fucking doubt -- that's the point. Who would EVER say "GOD DEFINITELY EXISTS" or "GOD DEFINITELY DOESN'T EXIST"? More important, who gives a fuck? See, it's exactly your type of idiocy that makes religion hard to take seriously. See, and what's even funnier is, I COMPLETELY clarified my position further in other posts, in stuff you have to, like, read and shit, about 500 things you failed to address -- BUT EVEN THE SHIT YOU QUOTED DIDN'T PROVE ANY POINT ON YOUR BEHALF! You've lost, man.

See, what you've actually done -- this is hilarious -- is made me seem even more thoughtful by the quotes you've chosen (even the mashed-up one)! Come on, dude, you could have at least done a classic troll "misquote" move, maybe you're not able to earn that skill at your experience level. Keep trying to level up -- I suggest another thread, as this one has clearly been way too deep for you.

Since you seem to not be aware of this... there are many types of agnosticism. Your silly little freedictionary link is just like your DERRR "idiotic" troll posts: simple and shallow. A few lines doesn't even begin to cover agnostic atheism, agnostic theism, ignosticism, apathetic/pragmatic agnosticism, strong agnosticism, and weak agnosticism -- all completely different forms of agnosticism, and I'm sure that anyone who actually thinks about this sort of, you know, STUFF (for lack of a better word -- trying to use small words now, the ones you can understand reasonably) -- will probably change their stance as they continue to, you know, THINK ABOUT STUFF.

In other words: yeah, today I might identify with agnostic theism, but a few years back I was a bit more pragmatic in my points of view. The main point of my original post is that I don't believe in any sort of "religion" but having read the Bible all the way through twice, as well as the Satanic Bible, I actually find a lot of intelligent points in both -- though most of it is common sense, in both cases.

Here, have some help... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic ... again, WARNING, THERE MAY OR MAY NOT BE BIG WORDS.

Wait for it, guys... I think he might actually be ready to say "you're an idiot" again...

You do realize, like, 6 or 7 people who have read this and replied have said you're the idiot here? That you have no chance to win? That you have failed to say anything smart in the history of this board, and definitely not in this thread? Maybe you should stop while you're behind.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/agnostic
"One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God."

there is no "possibly" in being agnostic. THAT is the fucking point of being agnostic. jeezus christ.

beyond hope.

you are not agnostic. idiot.

Right, and lemme guess, there is only the color red, and no crimson, falu, vermillion, venetian, rosso corsa, ruby, sinopia, persian, persimmon, roufous, scarlet, burgundy, chestnut, coquelicot, right? Sorry, sorry, I'm struggling, because I know that's a bad metapohr, but I'm really.. gosh.. I'm REALLY struggling to go down to your level here... I will now have to communicate in "glue-sniffr" for you to properly understand what I'm saying.

Okay, let's see if this makes sense;

Types of agnosticism (types. TYPES. Think of this as "sub-categories." Think of this as VARIATIONS OF. Think of this as "going into further detail")
Agnosticism can be subdivided into several categories. Recently suggested variations include:

Agnostic atheism
Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.

Agnostic theism
The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism
The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.

Ignosticism
The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable. Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth.

Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out."




.........


So, what have we learned today? That there are different types of agnosticism! Wow! I mean, EVERYONE -- except you -- knew this already, and has known this FOREVER -- see, it's a fact, not an opinion. Actually, if someone were to just call themselves an "agnostic", flat-out, then another reasonably intelligent person would probably say, "what kind of agnostic?" Maybe not amongst your friends who think probably think Gumby is a religion, but in, like, real life, where people actually have conversations that consist of words and stuff.

So, let's review: No one agrees with you, you've proven yourself to not have any idea what you're talking about, you possibly don't even know how to read, YOU'VE LOST. Give it a break already.

ASP: "I don't know for sure if there's a god or not."
hevusa: "Yes you do!"

:confused:

he's not contradicting himself. because agnosticism is the belief that while the idea of there being a god is not something we can ever know, or be sure we could know the person holding the agnostic belief still errs on the side of belief that there is despite not knowing for sure if there is or isn't.

this is the basic definition of agnosticism as i have always understood it. so he is not contradicting himself whatsoever.

there is an ambivalency about god, if god is a creator or not. it doesnt matter if me or you were to agree or disagree with this, calling someone an idiot simply for having an opinion, but not being able to back this up, is pretty much idiocy.

he doesn't know if there is a god, and he is skeptical that this question could ever be satisfactorily answered. but he errs on the side of belief, despite/because? of this.

now if you were to make some point about these subjects that was intended to be anything other than trollish, that would be the non idiot thing to do.

as it is, by inferring the idea he is an idiot over and over again, you are acting awfully like that idiot you keep mentioning. but you know this already.

you know what you could have done? you could have explained your point without trying to use it to justify the proposition that he is an idiot. you could still do this, and drop the whole idiot thing.

dude, why such vitriolic nonsense? Do you really hear yourself? This is a thread about LOVE, if you have nothing nice to say, why not go say such unnice things on more appropriate threads?


over the past few weeks I have noticed you lashing out at anyone who posts about anything remotely stabilizing for them, be it politics, religion, philosophy, music etc etc Why such unceasing bitterness? Are you envious of our stability whatever the origin? Instead of trying to create so much strife and chaos, why don't YOU try finding something that makes you a bit more stable?

to get back on topic:

Mont Saint Michel and Chartres by Henry Adams

[quote] more from Henry Adams

guys. im disappointed. havent you been following? i mean the agnosticism thing. Come on.