Agreed. I had a conversation with a very good friend of mine the other day. He's someone who, entirely without irony (but perhaps with a smidge of belligerence) absolutely loves Chris Rea. He likes other, good things, as well. He was accusing me of liking Grime because it's hip and cool and such forth. Which is not accurate, but it's an easy way for someone who has little appreciation of dance-based music to accomodate for someone liking something that entirely mystifies him. People use the irony argument quite often when this is the case. Sometimes it gets on my tits, sometimes I couldn't give a fuck, sometimes (as we've seen today) it causes me great mirth to put an AIDS-curse on them. Tick-tock Mr & Bowels.

The irony bit is not as annoying as the sincerity side of things. Listening to indie, blah blah blah music for years has kind of made me quite distrustful of a lot of people who have some sort of similar taste as mine. From disliking continuous irony in music, I can safely say now that I rarely trust many people when they claim to be so much into music altogether. Indie music divides people more than it unites them, I think. Oh well, whatever, dinner's ready.

avril has a LOT of help, from producers tweaking every single track on her songs, to writers writing the music to writers writing her songs to npublicists ensuring she only plays where the 13 year old girls can go see her to the sound guy at every show tweaking the board to ensure she "hits" the right notes etc etc etc

soooo

she in no way is better at what she does (top 40 ear-friendly rock) than Blonde Redhead is at what they do (sometimes sonically difficult avant rock)

I have a similar situation with Elton John, whose 70s output I genuinely think of as masterpieces. I wouldn't waste so much time listening to them If i just thought of them as kitsch.

Ditto Avril Lavigne's first album, 'Stars are Blind', and Green Day's 'Wake Me Up When September Ends'. All seriously great.

If there's one thing more annoying than the whole 'ironic' issue, it's the whole 'but they don't even tune their own guitars' one.

Are The Ronettes inferior to 2 Non-Blondes because they never actually wrote Be My Baby?

The best thing about being old is knowing just how much total crap music there was being made in any so-called "golden age of music when things had so much quality and you kids just don't get it" that people of your age group will look back on with rose-colored headphones.

Early 90s, I'm looking in your direction.

There is good music in every era, and there are also fucktons of crap being churned out at all times.

the early 90s did blow except for a few bands. the whole alt-rock/grunge explosion was like a septic tank exploding and shit spewing everywhere.

I saw a lot of awesome shows in the mid 80s and early 90s.
I see a lot of awesome shows now.

I also saw a lot of crap shows and saw a lot of crap get a lot of attention back in "the day," just like now!
Wow! Perspective rules!

noone was talking about better or worse dude, you were talking about avril being better at what she does than blonde redhead are at what they do.

george bush is better at being pigheaded than dean cook is at being funny but they both still suck ass.

if the judgement is to be made on songwriting then YES, sad to say 4 non blondes by virtue of having written somngs, are BETTER than the ronnettes. horrible world this.

perspective DOES rule, but perspective is not just granted to all. it takes time and experience to gain perspective, hence the quick love given by youth culture to anything new even if it actually sucks ass.

It's only cos we're living in a new age
You don't know what you're like when you're in a rage
They're gonna put you away in a cage
You better start to act your age
You better start to act your age

is that ironic AIDs, will I die writhing in irony?

how do you know? you weren't even born...

Like every birth of some new rock genre (if you want to call it that) the first few bands are amazing but the hype is quick to these few and more and more shitty bands more in and jump on the bandwagon.

This is obviously a generalization.

Irony is fine, and at times necessary. I'm talking about people having their taste described as ironic when in fact they might just like something. No more. No less.

Sincerity in music is also fine, but when it turns into earnestness I tend to run for cover.

Husker Du records are sincere. Sting records are earnest.

I feel rather sorry for a lot of overhyped bands. If i were a member of Arctic Monkeys, when the NME journalists voted their first album as one of the top five british albums ever, I'd be pissed off. That kind of thing immediately casts suspicion on a new band.

The Arctic Monkeys themselves are probably as aware as anyone that they're an OK band, but that they need time to see if they can become something more.

Alas, the bargain piles are filled with 'next big things' that were never given that time.

wow the mystery of time!!! however i posit that if you are feeling old at 22 you are not achieving any goals or chasing dreams to make your life better when you get older.....


cos im 33 and feel 22

I'm way older than most of you here, but this thread made me feel like a spring chicken. Old farts.
Nevertheless, an interesting read.

this is a great thread, if only in that it proves how trying to make complicated points (that actually reflect what you mean) on a messageboard is fuckin impossible.

this type of debate requires lots of people sitting around an old wooden table, and free flowing alcohol.

And then there are people--like my brother, for instance--who have no interest in music at all. He's terribly smart when it comes to math and science, however, and is also a very good athlete. Every now and then I'll invite him to go out with me and my friends because he's usually more fun to hang out with than they are. He was my date for senior prom (he was in the 8th grade at the time) and we wore matching outfits. I didn't expect him to go along with it, but he has never embarrassed easily. I admire his ability to maintain a lot of good friendships despite having very little in common with the people he considers to be his closest friends. And he even acknowledges that he's quite different from them, though he doesn't seem to dwell on the fact. I just think it's funny to see his friends putting so much importance on music and movies and all those likes/dislikes that he really does not have. Our mom still picks out all his clothes for him. I don't know what else to say.