Sonic Youth Gossip

Sonic Youth Gossip (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/index.php)
-   Non-Sonics (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Are we living in a police state? (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthread.php?t=15117)

tesla69 10.03.2007 09:49 AM

Culture, change collide in Treme
Some residents balk at musicians' traditional sendoff

Wednesday, October 03, 2007
By Katy Reckdahl
Staff writer
Monday, at about 8 p.m., nearly 20 police cars swarmed to a Treme corner, breaking up a memorial procession and taking away two well-known neighborhood musicians in handcuffs.
The brothers, snare drummer Derrick Tabb and trombonist Glen David Andrews, were in a group of two dozen musicians playing a spontaneous parade for tuba player Kerwin James, who died last week of complications from a stroke he had suffered after Hurricane Katrina.
The confrontation spurred cries in the neighborhood about the over-reaction and disproportionate enforcement by police, who had often turned a blind eye to the traditional memorial ceremonies. Still others say the incident is a sign of a greater attack on the cultural history of the old city neighborhood by well-heeled newcomers attracted to Treme by the very history they seem to threaten.
Police say Monday's response was in part generated from unspecified complaints.
Tabb and Andrews face misdemeanor charges of disturbing the peace and parading without a permit. But both returned Tuesday night to the intersection of St. Philip and North Robertson streets to lead another procession for their friend.
"I got to be here," Andrews said. "Because I have to stand up for what I believe in."
Peaceful parade
Tuesday's parade was without incident. It was peacefully escorted by the New Orleans Police Department, thanks to a newly issued permit, the result of lengthy meetings Tuesday between community groups and police officials.
Funeral director Louis Charbonnet, a longtime supporter of music in Treme who also is in charge of James' Saturday funeral service, confirmed the permit came from those meetings, which he participated in. He was vague about who paid for the permit. "We've got a permit and it's paid for," he said.
Some neighbors said buying a permit was a cop-out, arguing the traditional parades should be unencumbered by the bureaucratic formalities.
"It is" a cop out, Charbonnet agreed. "But sometimes you have to do what you have to do."
As Charbonnet stood waiting for the parade to start, he emphasized that the meetings already had an effect. "Look around," he said. "Today you've got police out here protecting people. Yesterday it was harassment," he said.
Jerome Smith, who runs the Treme Community Center a block from Monday's arrest scene, said the police response was heavy-handed and culturally insensitive. He compared it to the Police Department's heavily criticized treatment of the Mardi Gras Indians on St. Joseph's night in 2005, which was the topic of Big Chief Tootie Montana's City Council testimony the night he collapsed and died in the council chambers.
First District Capt. Louis Colin avoided such comparisons, defending his officers' response Monday night. "If a law is being violated, we have to uphold the law," he said. But after Tuesday's meetings, he said he is determined to work with neighbors to find "long-term solutions" to this issue.
'I need to be here'
Lifelong Treme resident Beverly Curry, 65, is one who believes that permits should not be required for the neighborhood memorial parades. Despite a failing leg, Curry made it to the procession's start Tuesday night. "I need to be here, to show my support for our heritage," she said.
For a century, she said, that heritage has included impromptu second-line parades for musicians who die, "from the day they pass until the day they're put in the ground," she said. Those memorial processions still occur with regularity, without permits, as is the tradition. But, increasingly, NOPD officers have been halting them, citing complaints from neighbors and incidents of violence at similar gatherings.
In some ways, the police complaints parallel those NOPD officials raised earlier this year, as they defended the high permit fees that the department was charging New Orleans' weekly second-line parades, hosted by social aid and pleasure clubs. Ultimately, the NOPD settled that suit, assessing much lower rates to allow the clubs to parade. Club members saw the court victory as an admission by police officials that they had been insensitive to New Orleans' culture.
But Curry and other longtime residents point fingers at Treme newcomers, who buy up the neighborhood's historic properties, then complain about a jazz culture that is just as longstanding and just as lauded as the neighborhood's architecture.
"They want to live in the Treme, but they want it for their ways of living," Curry said.
For newly arrived neighbors, Curry sometimes serves as a cultural interpreter. "I tell them, 'When someone dies in the Treme, you're going to hear a band,' " she said. But to those neighbors dismayed by the noise or the crowds that come along with those bands, Curry is stern. "I say, 'You found us doing this -- this is our way," she said.
Mourning a friend
On Monday night, about 25 of the city's top-rung brass-band musicians mourned Kerwin James the way they hope to be mourned themselves: They paraded around Treme, taking the same well-trod route that the spontaneous parades often take. They started at the corner of North Robertson and St. Philip streets, then criss-crossed through the quiet streets of old Treme, which stretches from Esplanade Avenue to Basin Street, from Rampart Street to Claiborne Avenue.
On horns and drums were James' lifelong friends, bandmates from the New Birth Brass Band and members of the Rebirth Brass Band, including James' brother, tuba player Phil Frazier. Dancing along with the band was a crowd of about 100 people, including about 30 children. At some street corners, the band stopped and played for a few minutes while fancy dancers strutted and dipped and elderly neighbors in bathrobes stepped out onto their stoops to wave and give their condolences to James' family.
Then, about 8 p.m., a squad car pulled up behind the parade, which was just yards from its ending point, back at the corner of North Robertson and St. Philip.
When a New Orleans Police Department car approaches, musicians say they never know what's ahead.
Sometimes a squad car arrives and quietly follows the parade. Other times, an officer will emerge and ask for the bandleader, then discuss the reason for the parade and the planned route. In those cases, the two parties may negotiate a different route or ending point, but the parade typically is allowed to continue.
But on Monday night, the squad car meant the parade was over. The band had just launched into the funeral hymn, "I'll Fly Away," and some musicians had tears running down their faces as they sang the lyrics: "One glad morning, when this life is over, I'll fly away. When I die, hallelujah by and by, I'll fly away." At that point, officers used the car's intercom to tell band members that if they continued playing, they would be arrested.
Most musicians kept playing, as they walked into the parking lot. "I wasn't trying to defy police," one trombone player said. "But I was just carried by emotion."
Officers repeated their message, with little effect, so they began running into the crowd and grabbing anyone with an instrument. Some officers grabbed at mouthpieces, others tried to seize drumsticks out of hands.
James' sister, Nicole James-Francois was shocked. "There were so many police cars," she said. The scene was so peaceful and beautiful while the band was playing the hymn, she said. "Then it beaome almost something demonic, with all these officers saying, 'Don't you play.' "
Soon, 20 squad cars were lining the blocks of North Robertson between St. Philip and Dumaine streets, filling the night with red and blue flashing lights.

tesla69 10.03.2007 11:12 AM

The First Set of Disappearances Were Called Extraordinary Renditions
While extraordinary renditions were the sanitized words the US Government, and, sadly, the media, used to label the disappearances, there was nothing extraordinary about them.
The CIA used the same tactics that survivors of torture everywhere have come to know all too well. Without an arrest, without charges, in darkness or in shadows, people were disappeared, drugged, hooded, and sent to a clandestine prison where they were tortured.
After denying the existence of CIA-run secret prisons for years, the Bush administration now claims to have closed them. As always the case when governments disappear people, we may never know what happened to all of the prisoners. We do know that at least some of the prisoners were transferred to DoD custody and sent to Guantanamo.
The Second Set of Disappearances Are Being Called 'Transfers' and Are Happening Now
If extraordinary renditions were the sanitized words used to describe the first set of disappearances, transfer and repatriation are the sanitized words being used to describe the second set of disappearances.
Yesterday, the Department of Defense 'transferred' eight more prisoners from Guantanamo to governments where torture and indefinite detentions are common. According to the DoD, six prisoners (the Pentagon uses the sanitized term 'detainees') were 'transferred' to Afghanistan, one was 'transferred' to Libya and one to Yemen.
Languishing in those countries’ prisons is an unfortunate fate for men that the US Government has already held for years, likely tortured, and is only releasing now because prosecutors lack any evidence to prove their guilt. As with all disappearances, authorities have refused to release even the names of the prisoners.
These eight are the latest in a series of transfers – disappearances – as the government attempts to untangle the legal web it created to bypass the Geneva Convention and US Constitution. So deep in the dark hole of torture, the only option they see is to keep digging.
Much like the Military Commissions Act, the law created to govern Guantanamo, the 'transfer' and 'repatriation' of prisoners is designed to look good on paper. DoD press releases state that 'the transfer is a demonstration of the United States' desire not to hold detainees any longer than necessary.'
But, much like the Military Commissions Act, the transfers continue a system of disappearances and torture. Much like the Military Commissions Act, the transfers are a PR stunt that hides torture and denies survivors any hope of ever telling their story and seeking justice.
The men 'transferred' yesterday may never see a day in court. They may never get to tell their stories. Along with the Military Commissions Act – the Torture Law – we must demand that the second set of disappearances comes to an end.


By Ted Stein http://torturelaw.org

tesla69 10.05.2007 01:40 PM

http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/392

atari 2600 10.05.2007 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tesla69


I find this post by resident nutball tesla69 especially telling. If you explore the link, it's fairly sensationalized copy on that page.

What don't you understand, tesla69?
If you march around in an unlawful assembly, it doesn't matter what document you're reading from! Duh!
This so reminds me of the ingrate down in Gainesville who got tased at the Kerry speech.

In the video at the landing page, what we see is a bunch of spoiled rotten kids playing a little game of "political activism" for the benefit of the camera. These brats have no knowledge of how to bring their message to people, nor do they care or even have an intelligent message in the first place. All they care about is getting their kicks and making a video for dissemination on YouTube and the like.

And don't get the sense that I'm just taking easy pot shots at today's generation. The Yippies and the Merry Pranksters back in the sixties were just as immature and misinformed with no real answers or direction. They claimed they wanted to "shake things up," to let their "freak flag fly" as a show of protest and irreverence, but any concerned individual (& let's face facts, people, it's time to get very seriously concerned) knows that one must be (a) informed to a fault, and (b) respectful to authority to a fault, to get anything accomplished. It seems people understood this concept intrinsically during the early sixties with the Civil Rights Movement, but that a bunch of yahoos began to make careers out of being leftist fruit loops in their stead later on in the sixties, and that this is, unfortunately, a fucked-up tradition that continues to this very day.

In October 2006, the 2007 John Warner Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 5122) was signed into law. Outlined in this legislation are expansions of the powers of the Insurrection Act, which allow the President and the President alone (without the approval of Congress or any state or local authority being necessary) to authorize the deployment of National Guard troops within the borders of the United States to combat unlawful assemblies of protesters, illegal aliens and "undesirables" in general. The same law also contains an equally disturbing provision granting the President emergency powers in a time of national crisis or emergency that supersede any state or local authority.

So, apparently, none of the posters in this thread (that feign concern) have any kind of clue at all as to the mechanism providing for eventual possible realities of a police state in the U.S., since this law has not been mentioned in this topic.

What seems a horrible possibility is that more attacks may be allowed to happen. In the aftermath, protesters may be squelched under the Warner provisions. And chances are, the authorities will be using the Raytheon Silent Guardian on the crowds.

__________________
But, thank goodness that everyone is not a complete idiot. This guy actually has sense:
Serious Change: dress like you're going to the most important job interview of your life
September 30, 2007 11:10 AM

Seriously pissed? How about serious change? Decades from now, no one will accuse our generation of not protesting enough, but you'll probably be making excuses for how we did it. No offense to those who have protested this way- your heart's in the right place and you've probably given lots of time and money to doing the right thing- but what if you're not helping? What if hundreds of thousands of people turned out in their very best, most serious clothes, with no puppets, no "clever" home-made signs, and no instruments? It's worked before. As Matt Taibbi put it in AdBusters (previously on MeFi), "Next thing you know, you’ve got guys on stilts wearing mime makeup and Cat-in-the-Hat striped top-hats leading a half-million people at an anti-war rally. Why is that guy there? Because no one told him that war is a matter of life and death and that he should leave his fucking stilts at home." These things always start small, but who knows? This is serious- let's act like it. If you wouldn't bring it or wear it to your grandmother's funeral, leave it at home.
posted by paul_smatatoes (168 comments total) 25 users marked this as a favorite

tesla69 10.05.2007 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atari 2600
I find this post by resident nutball tesla69 especially telling. If you explore the link, it's fairly sensationalized copy on that page.
What don't you understand, tesla69?
If you march around in an unlawful assembly, it doesn't matter what document you're reading from! DUH!


We know you worship authority Atari2600, but in the US the Constitution gives us the right to Freedom of Assembly. It doesn't say we have the right if the cops want to give us the right. You can't wear Tshirts in public, you can't smoke in your house, your every communication is monitored, etc etc etc Wake the hell up moron.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atari 2600
In October 2006, the 2007 John Warner Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 5122) was signed into law. the President emergency powers in a time of national crisis or emergency.
So, apparently, none of the posters in this thread (that feign concern) have any kind of clue at all as to the mechanism providing for eventual possible realities of a police state in the U.S., since this law has not been mentioned in this topic.


So why didn't you add it to the discussion instead of spreading smear and personal insults? Is that too civilized for you?

atari 2600 10.05.2007 02:29 PM

Fuck you; you're an idiot.

It's people like you that subvert real change because you're just another space cadet that can't see the forest for the trees. It's people like you that give creedence to right wing expressions like "the loony left."
You have no interest in facts or rationality. All you care about is being "conspiracy guy" because you've made that into your false identity. No movement needs you. You and others like you are nothing more than a liability that stands in the way of informing the public and getting things done. Go fuck yourself.

All that anyone needs to do is to write an intelligent and coherent letter to their representatives citing historical precedent and contentions derived via a rudimentary understanding of political science and constitutional law about certain provisions within H.R. 5122. Only a truly uncaring person is uninformed to the extent that they can't even handle the basics. I posted about this law early this year, but removed the post because I (correctly) figured that nobody would give a damn anyway.

floatingslowly 10.05.2007 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atari 2600
But, thank goodness that everyone is not a complete idiot. This guy actually has sense:
Serious Change: dress like you're going to the most important job interview of your life
September 30, 2007 11:10 AM

Seriously pissed? How about serious change? Decades from now, no one will accuse our generation of not protesting enough, but you'll probably be making excuses for how we did it. No offense to those who have protested this way- your heart's in the right place and you've probably given lots of time and money to doing the right thing- but what if you're not helping? What if hundreds of thousands of people turned out in their very best, most serious clothes, with no puppets, no "clever" home-made signs, and no instruments? It's worked before. As Matt Taibbi put it in AdBusters (previously on MeFi), "Next thing you know, you’ve got guys on stilts wearing mime makeup and Cat-in-the-Hat striped top-hats leading a half-million people at an anti-war rally. Why is that guy there? Because no one told him that war is a matter of life and death and that he should leave his fucking stilts at home." These things always start small, but who knows? This is serious- let's act like it. If you wouldn't bring it or wear it to your grandmother's funeral, leave it at home.
posted by paul_smatatoes (168 comments total) 25 users marked this as a favorite


quoted for truth.


honestly, does logic ever really matter to soap-box types or is all that shouting done so that they can be heard and/or adored?

sadly, I suspect that in a lot of cases, it's the latter.

there are a lot of fucked up things in this world that might be resolved if people attempted to fix the problems in a logical and rational manner.


[edit: ouch, I think I just broke my false identity]

atari 2600 10.05.2007 03:33 PM

Well, if a person (like tesla69) that purports to be a rational truth-teller believes in UFOs from outer space, then it's no stretch at all to psychologically and philosophically label their personality as a false identity because their entire belief system is based on assumptions that willfully ignore reality in favor of personal fantasy.

The only concept that will overcome The Lie is The Truth, and nothing less, so be nothing short of vigilant. Objective truth is incredibly elusive to the selfish, and ultimately insecure, human ego. Yet more Lies (concocted by extreme leftist burnouts) piled on top of all the other Lies, will never do anyone any good.

floatingslowly 10.05.2007 03:45 PM

I'm not sure that I've ever really seen telsa insist that he was rational, but to me most of his posts are akin to carpet bombing.

there's an aweful lot of ordinance dropped, but it's mostly all collateral damage, as opposed to actual hits on his targets.

anyways, that's enough e-seriousness for me to last a month. I just wanted to say "good post".

carry on, soldier.

tesla69 10.05.2007 04:02 PM

I've been dealing with bullies like atari all my life so shes gonna have to work a little harder. She's very very rigid in his beliefs. She loves to yell and scream. Her smeers are a perfect example of why nothing can get done anymore. Anyone disagrees, they get name called.

Floatingslowly, I'm not sure what rationality means anymore in our world. My country murders 100,000 people, spreads radioactive dust throughout the environment, and is creating all kinds of genetically engineered virii and bacteria in 100's of labs around the country. That is considered rationalism. Consider me unsubscribed.

Jim

atari 2600 10.05.2007 04:11 PM

Citing examples of atrocities to convey a desired image doesn't automatically make you a concerned individual in reality. Any idiot can surf the web and copy and paste; it doesn't mean that they've spent any effort coming up with solutions to problems. Actions have always spoken louder than words. And one action you should have already taken is to make yourself informed concering the certain law passed last October and to have already taken appropriate measures concerning its troubling content. So please, spare me and spare us all the act.

one more time for the stubborn fuck who is far more concerned about his feathers getting ruffled than the actual truth of things:

And don't get the sense that I'm just taking easy pot shots at today's generation. The Yippies and the Merry Pranksters back in the sixties were just as immature and misinformed with no real answers or direction. They claimed they wanted to "shake things up," to let their "freak flag fly," as a show of protest and irreverence, but any concerned individual (& let's face facts, people, it's time to get very seriously concerned) knows that one must be (a) informed to a fault, and (b) respectful to authority to a fault, to get anything accomplished. It seems people understood this concept intrinsically during the early sixties with the Civil Rights Movement, but that a bunch of yahoos began to make careers out of being leftist fruit loops in their stead later on in the sixties, and that this is, unfortunately, a fucked-up tradition that continues to this very day.

So you see, I'm not the bully. I understand that one must work from within the system and be respectful of authority to affect change. But hey, I'm just patriotic with a true belief in the U.S. Constitution that way.
tesla69, on the other hand, espouses a juvenile and unrealistic call to anarchy in a rather ridiculous and vainglorious attempt to bully change into happening by disrespecting all authority and rubbing their faces in the mess that's been made of things. Which is, of course, all symptomatic of the fact that he has no answers or direction at all, the truth be completely told.

demonrail666 10.06.2007 12:19 AM

It's definitely a frustrating time we live in. I see a lot of people talking revolution but its largely adopting a language handed down from the 1960s. Retro-revolt if you like, as if all people want these days is their own version of an Abbie Hoffman. Shifts in economic, racial, gender and class politics over the last quarter of a century have rendered much of the thinking associated with the sixties counter-culture even more misguided than they were at the time. Protests against the Vietnam war, racial segregation, nuclear arms, etc., were straightforward compared with the more deeply interlocking issues that face us today.

How we tackle them is of course the great problem in that it'll clearly take massive infrastructural change and a period of potential transitional unrest, but whatever changes need to be made they need to be based on facts rather than received dogma.

Glice 10.06.2007 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atari 2600
I
So, apparently, none of the posters in this thread (that feign concern) have any kind of clue at all as to the mechanism providing for eventual possible realities of a police state in the U.S., since this law has not been mentioned in this topic.



Erudition itself. I don't have the wherewithal to contribute to the mire of this thread, except to say that it's all well and good getting angry, but it strikes me as a function of emotion rather than ration to be 'angry' about the variegated machinations of contemporary (nomenclature/ nominal/ actual) democracy which, in turn, serves to make posting on a message board both 'enjoyable' (in an entirely masochistic fashion) and futile.

atari 2600 10.06.2007 09:44 AM

Yeah, you're right, Glice, I have no right to be human and get emotional about my fellow American citizens being complete incompetents in the face of potential impending upheaval that will affect the whole world, including your little corner, negatively.:rolleyes:

And thanks for your honesty...that you have no "wherewithal to contribute."
And since you do not, why don't you follow your own advice and remove your little contribution to the thread?

Glice 10.06.2007 09:50 AM

This Is A Title I Am Going Advance Woo.
 
Ha.

Perhaps I should modify/ mollify my statement - being emotional about 'the state of things' is entirely right and judicious, and, given time, will affect these changes that are sorely needed, and probably are already. It's the calls for a sudden, dramatic & radical upheaval from the same quarters that endorse (my view of) those aspects of culture which are endemic of/ to, if not responsible for, the same problems they purportedly decry.

I'll inevitably edit this following your inevitable editing of the above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atari 2600
And thanks for your honesty...that you have no "wherewithal to contribute."
And since you do not, why don't you follow your own advice and remove your little contribution to the thread?


No, thank you for your lamentable instransigence. Understandable, yes, but I'm not going to remove every instance of my saying something true, although you are right insofar as my doing so isn't entirely conducive to the ends of an internet forum.

atari 2600 10.06.2007 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonrail666
It's definitely a frustrating time we live in. I see a lot of people talking revolution but its largely adopting a language handed down from the 1960s. Retro-revolt if you like, as if all people want these days is their own version of an Abbie Hoffman. Shifts in economic, racial, gender and class politics over the last quarter of a century have rendered much of the thinking associated with the sixties counter-culture even more misguided than they were at the time. Protests against the Vietnam war, racial segregation, nuclear arms, etc., were straightforward compared with the more deeply interlocking issues that face us today.

How we tackle them is of course the great problem in that it'll clearly take massive infrastructural change and a period of potential transitional unrest, but whatever changes need to be made they need to be based on facts rather than received dogma.


Nice post, I appreciate your thoughts.

For the moment, the troubling aspects of Warner must be addressed first and foremostly.

The long-term solution is really rather simple. Well, it's simple in its elegance of formulation, but rather difficult to execute due to obvious inherency issues. But it is a solution that fixes a broken America. Either institute iron-clad campaign finance reform across the board to clean-up politics (and keep term limits as they are), or just add an amendment prohibiting repeat terms of office and putting an end to career politicians for good. If people fail to get behind this key aspect of addressing change and instead fall (once again) for splintering off in a thousand different directions expending their energies trying to fix a thousand different problems, then they play right into the control's hands, and nothing will ever get done and nothing will change. People seem to have real mental difficulty when it comes to correctly assessing what the real priority is and what the root of all of our problems is, namely, political corruption based on greed and/or vested interest in a political "career."

I've written about American patriot Doris Haddock before on this board. She's the elderly woman who walked across America to raise political consciousness in favor of responsible representation, and got the first attempt at campaign finance reform passed. The slippery snakes were able to wriggle out of that one.

__________________
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. - President Dwight D. Eisenhower, Farewell Address, 1961

demonrail666 10.06.2007 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atari 2600
The long-term solution is really rather simple. Well, it's simple in its elegance of formulation, but rather difficult to execute due to obvious inherency issues. But it is a solution that fixes a broken America. Either institute iron-clad campaign finance reform across the board to clean-up politics (and keep term limits as they are), or just add an amendment prohibiting repeat terms of office and putting an end to career politicians for good. If people fail to get behind this key aspect of addressing change and instead fall (once again) for splintering off in a thousand different directions expending their energies trying to fix a thousand different problems, then they play right into the control's hands, and nothing will ever get done and nothing will change. People seem to have real mental difficulty when it comes to correctly assessing what the real priority is and what the root of all of our problems is, namely, political corruption based on greed and/or vested interest in a political "career."


I agree with most of this, especially the putting in place of campaign fund caps. However I fail to see how a prohibition on repeat terms of office would have that big an impact on halting the concept of the career politician. Of course, if we take the term literally then yes, it would, but Government office is, as we know, a significant stepping stone to gaining lucrative positions on influential corporate boards. As such, regardless of whether a politician is able to serve one or more terms, the likelihood of them being given such a post after their period of office is extremely high.

This fluid transfer from the political to the corporate sphere is I believe the single most damaging factor in Western government today. Obviously the simple answer would be to prohibit ex politicians from such boards, but the logistical problem of trying to achieve such a thing makes it highly unlikely.

Too much of old revolutionary thinking was built around easy (read meaningless) notions like ''oppression'. However, as I think Atari suggests, it is indeed to the reciprocal relay of business and government resulting in a tight web of vested interest that should provide the real focus for anybody seriously interested in addressing today's crises.

ThePits 10.06.2007 04:51 PM

I think you both have the answer, place a cap on political funding, dont limit the amount of terms that a politican cans serve as politicians do not legislate beyond their elected term and some problems need a longer solution such as mass transit systems and environmental issues, and a ban on politicians taking up corporate positions for at least ten years after being removed. Put them on some sort of pension system. That takes out most of the global corporation corruption that is the demise of democracy as we know it

demonrail666 10.06.2007 05:00 PM

In essence, I agree.

However I work in what might be described as a government post and my experience of watching government officials fight to further their careers is truly one of the most horrifying sights imaginable.

atari 2600 10.06.2007 05:32 PM

 



How do Democrats expect Hillary (or Obama for that matter) to win the general election against either Rudy or Fred? What the fuck are people thinking? Are people thinking? What the fuck is wrong with people?
How is it that these four horrible candidates are out front?
And the primaries are all being moved up too.

Astoundingly, supporters for Dennis Kucinich for the Democrats and Ron Paul for the Republicans are so few in number (according to the API anyway) that they don't even merit a mention. Some polls have them each placing modest single digit numbers.

And, of course, Gore hasn't chosen to run, nor has Bloomberg.

(truly troubling)


 


 



 






pbradley 10.06.2007 05:44 PM

 

demonrail666 10.06.2007 06:26 PM

From a British perspective, the whole Hilary/Obama thing is entirely mystifying. It's as though the Democrats want to make a point of internal principle rather than actually win an election. Obviously, being British, I have to take almost as much interest in the US election as I do my own. Given that sad fact, the prospect of the Democrats throwing away their chance in this way genuinely annoys me. They don't just have a responsibilty to their own party, but to their country and the world to take this far more seriously than they appear to be.

pbradley 10.06.2007 06:33 PM

I'll vote for whichever Democrat wins the primary as usual.

tesla69 10.07.2007 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonrail666
From a British perspective, the whole Hilary/Obama thing is entirely mystifying. It's as though the Democrats want to make a point of internal principle rather than actually win an election.


the Dems serve the same masters as the Rethugs - they are 2 different factions of the same right wing.

MellySingsDoom 10.07.2007 10:30 AM

My two cents: we (in the UK amyway), live in a corporate state, and all the main political parties exist now purely to serve these interests. I don't see it changing anytime soon - only a total meltdown of the economy would shake things up, and as seen in the Northern Rock episode here, the UK Government will do all it can to uphold corporate interests whilst dumping on it's subjects on a daily basis. Still, it's all marvellous, innit?

demonrail666 10.08.2007 06:27 AM

Remember when they used to have enquiries into that kind of thing? Heseltine and the Westlands fiasco? Now it's just shrugged off as 'economic responsibility'.

I'd like to say the way out is to endorse minority parties but looking at them they're just as bad, only without the corporate endorsement and seem only to serve crackpot fringe-groups instead.

BNP - White rascists
Respect - Muslim fundamentalists and Students that never read their manifesto.

Despite what i said about minority parties, I'll probably be voting Green again this election. And if they got into power they'll probably be just as big corporate whores, only this time they'll be turning tricks for Ben n Jerry's and the Wild Bean Cafe. Bet your life that Paul Mccartney will do their campaign song too!

alyasa 10.08.2007 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Despite what i said about minority parties, I'll probably be voting Green again this election. And if they got into power they'll probably be just as big corporate whores, only this time they'll be turning tricks for Ben n Jerry's and the Wild Bean Cafe. Bet your life that Paul Mccartney will do their campaign song too!

It's about picking the lesser of two evils really... I doubt any of the proposed changes to the election and political system presented here might happen anytime in this millenium. For example, Singapore, where I live has had an electoral system that is free from rampant campaigning and institutes a closely-controlled system of funding, since its inception; nevertheless, for every election since the beginning, voters have only ever chosen one single party. Obviously, economic might is a very big issue with voters, and Bush et al have the werewithal to secure huge amounts of funds that, ultimately, is the only thing voters look for... In the end, I think it's better to change the mindset of the people than regulate the elected officials. So I say, vote Green if you have to...

5Against1 10.08.2007 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alyasa
It's about picking the lesser of two evils really... I doubt any of the proposed changes to the election and political system presented here might happen anytime in this millenium. For example, Singapore, where I live has had an electoral system that is free from rampant campaigning and institutes a closely-controlled system of funding, since its inception; nevertheless, for every election since the beginning, voters have only ever chosen one single party. Obviously, economic might is a very big issue with voters, and Bush et al have the werewithal to secure huge amounts of funds that, ultimately, is the only thing voters look for... In the end, I think it's better to change the mindset of the people than regulate the elected officials. So I say, vote Green if you have to...

As a registered Green I can tell you that it's almost impossible to get on ballots, the Big Two have seen to this. Debates in which the Green candidate actually gets air time are hysterical, the others are simply befuddled by their own lack of knowledge as it relates to the issues. Bush and Kerry were like deer in the headlights last election when pitted against David Cobb (Green) and whomever the Libertarian guy was, it was eye opening and sad.

alyasa 10.08.2007 07:41 AM

That's ridiculous, I can never undrestand how politics has became a media circus in the states...

5Against1 10.08.2007 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alyasa
That's ridiculous, I can never undrestand how politics has became a media circus in the states...

It's simple, not all states matter. I live in New York State, a Democrat is ALWAYS elected here...my vote means nothing really...other than I feel obligated to do it out of respect for those who died so I have the opportunity. If more poepole read the Green Platform they'd like it...it's just considerd "fringe".

alyasa 10.08.2007 08:17 AM

I seriously think that American politics needs a shake up before the whole world suffers for their sins...

5Against1 10.08.2007 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alyasa
I seriously think that American politics needs a shake up before the whole world suffers for their sins...

It's that stupid electoral college, a mouth breather like Bush can lose a majority of the votes and still win. Americans love it though.

5Against1 10.08.2007 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swa(y)
im just curious....not trying to be an asshole...but how many of those that died so you can have the opportnunity to vote wanted to die for that very reason?

how many people go into the military because they are patriotic and want to do something for their country?

how many join the amred forces because its literally about the easiest way into a decent career?

why are so many recruiting offices located in malls and shopping centers (id be willing to bet its because of all the looser kids that hang out...the 18 year olds fresh outta HS, not interested in going to college, and not a better damned thing to do)

how many go in cause they can do little else? maybe they were court ordered as an alrenative to jail...maybe they had a kid and needed a decent career....

i could be completely wrong, but im think only about ten percent of people that go in go in because they are "military mided". of course..what...atleast 75 percent of all that go in are forced into becoming "military minded" with all the mindless propaganda and all...

im just saying..i dont know...i just dont see why that would be a good reason to vote. i support voting, and think more people (including myself) should probally do it (even though i think it would be better if more people just decided to read up a bit and become not so...politcally ignorent).

i dont know man. i was just curious...seriously....as to why ya feel that way.

how many were drafted into vietnam agaist their will?

After Pearl Harbor lines formed around the block at recruitment centers, these men died so I can vote. The outcome of WWII was never a "slam dunk" and we (The UK included) could have easily lost. Watch the first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan and then give me a good reason to NOT spend a few minutes voting. Vietnam, Korea, and this Iraqi mess are not to be confused with the ACTUAL THREAT of WWII. Nobody recruited those men in WWII, they responded.

tesla69 10.08.2007 10:27 AM

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contacts:
Jack Aponte (jack @ srlp.org, 347-247-1526)
Naomi Clark (naomi @ srlp.org, 917-907-4870)

Police Brutality Strikes Fifth Anniversary of Sylvia Rivera Law Project


NEW YORK - On the night of Wednesday, September 26, officers from the
9th Precinct of the New York Police Department attacked without
provocation members of the Sylvia Rivera Law Project and of its
community. Two of our community members were violently arrested, and

others were pepper sprayed in the face without warning or cause.

The Sylvia Rivera Law Project (www.srlp.org) is an organization that
works on behalf of low-income people of color who are transgender,

gender non-conforming, or intersex, providing free legal services and
advocacy among many other initiatives. On Wednesday night, the Sylvia
Rivera Law Project was celebrating its fifth anniversary with a
celebration and fundraising event at a bar in the East Village.


A group of our community members, consisting largely of queer and
transgender people of color, witnessed two officers attempting to
detain a young Black man outside of the bar. Several of our community
members asked the officers why they were making the arrest and using

excessive force. Despite the fact that our community was on the
sidewalk, gathered peacefully and not obstructing foot traffic, the
NYPD chose to forcefully grab two people and arrested them. Without
warning, an officer then sprayed pepper spray across the group in a

wide arc, temporarily blinding many and causing vomiting and intense
pain.

"This is the sort of all-too-common police violence and overreaction
towards people of color that happens all the time," said Dean Spade,

founder of the Sylvia Rivera Law Project. "It's ironic that we were
celebrating the work of an organization that specifically opposes
state violence against marginalized communities, and we experienced a

police attack at our celebration."

"We are outraged, and demand that our community members be released
and the police be held accountable for unnecessary use of excessive
force and falsely arresting people," Spade continued.


Damaris Reyes is executive director of GOLES, an organization working
to preserve the Lower East Side. She commented, "I'm extremely
concerned and disappointed by the 9th Precinct's response to the

situation and how it escalated into violence. This kind of aggressive
behavior doesn't do them any good in community-police relations."

Supporters will be gathering at 100 Centre Street tomorrow, where the

two community members will be arraigned. The community calls for
charges to be dropped and to demand the immediate release of those
arrested.

*******
The Audre Lorde Project
Center for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Two Spirit & Transgender

ThePits 10.08.2007 12:18 PM

I am always amazed how many times police, for no apparent reason, beat the crap out of innocent people.
You would think with the amount of times it allegedly happens some bugger would have captured pictures on their mobile phone or even a bit of video footage.
Whilst I appreciate that not all police are innocent and some certainly do go over the top and deserve to be jailed, I just find, in an age where everyone from the age of 12 upwards seems to have a mobile phone with a camera on it, that there is this distinct lack of independant incontrovertible evidence

tesla69 10.08.2007 04:28 PM

I haven't been called any names yet today by atari! Maybe he took his meds for a change...maybe the Feds aren't sending him his paycheck...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...html?p rint=1
Science teacher's brush with police ends in heart attack
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BY JOHN MARZULLI
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Monday, October 8th 2007, 4:00 AM

Lester Jacob says he was nearly scared to death by NYPD cops who mistook him for a perp.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mild-mannered Brooklyn high school teacher says he was nearly scared to death by NYPD cops who mistook him for a perp.
When the violent encounter was over, Lester Jacob, 50, suffered a heart attack and was left on his own in the street by cops, who accused him of "acting."
In July he underwent open-heart surgery.
Jacob had the misfortune to be driving home through Brownsville, Brooklyn, on June 22 around the same time cops were on the lookout for a hit-and-run driver. Jacob, an earth science teacher at James Madison High School in Midwood, heard a siren, looked in his rear-view mirror and dutifully pulled over for the radio car behind him.
He wasn't prepared for what happened next. Two officers rushed up to Jacob's vehicle and pointed their guns at his head, according to a lawsuit filed in Brooklyn Federal Court.
Cursing at him, they ordered Jacobs out of the car and roughly cuffed him.
"One officer crushed his knee into Mr. Jacob's back," the complaint states. "They then repeatedly slammed his head onto the car and then pressed his head against the car for some time."
Additional officers arrived on the scene with a witness to the earlier accident. The witness told them Jacob was the wrong guy.
"'I told you it was a white Maxima,'" the witness reportedly said, according to the complaint. Jacob drives a white Infiniti.
Jacob told the cops he was experiencing chest pains and began coughing uncontrollably.
A female cop said, "Nice acting," according to Jacob, and then drove off. Jacob said he struggled to drive home, stopping to vomit on the side of the road.
His wife rushed him to the hospital, where doctors determined he had suffered a heart attack.
"I was scared to death," Jacob said of his brush with the NYPD. "I was feeling terror."
His attorney John Lambros said there was no reason for the cops to handcuff or use excessive force against the 150-pound teacher while they were waiting for the witness to show up.
The cops were not identified, but their radio car number has been turned over to the Civilian Complaint Review Board. A spokeswoman for the city Law Department said the complaint is being reviewed.

atari 2600 10.08.2007 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tesla69
I haven't been called any names yet today by atari! Maybe he took his meds for a change...maybe the Feds aren't sending him his paycheck...



You're a paranoid fucking dumbass.

Happy now, freak?

5Against1 10.08.2007 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swa(y)
the same thing happened after the WTC situation. yep. and im firmly convinced yr average soldier is just as confused as to what is actually going on as every one else is...IF, he even cares at all.

i cant help but to feel sorry for all the soldiers that were killed by native americans....so that we could one day have the right to vote in their land.

You've strayed from the original thought just a tad. The plight of the Native Americans isn't the topic, you're mixing apples and oranges.

demonrail666 10.09.2007 10:19 AM

We don't live in a 'police state' or 'fascist state', we live in a state of domestic neglect. So long as Downing Street and The White House continues on its global odyssey applying band-aids to the world's problems, we should be demanding that our governments take a long hard look at the mess on their own doorstep.

tesla69 10.09.2007 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atari 2600
[/size][/size]
You're a paranoid fucking dumbass.

Happy now, freak?


At least I'm a man.

http://www.plentyoffish.com/member820994.htm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All content ©2006 Sonic Youth