It amazes me, this assumption of "insignificant to the founding of a nation" is the same as "insignificant to the history of a nation."

I guess I can now say that my ex-girlfriend played a significant role in my birth.

kinky

lol, so all brown people are hispanics to you?

Hispanics had nothing to do with the founding of our country. Like pbradely said, it was the native americans who were here first and there is a big distinction between the two.

Also, it's offensive that you played the whole "everything was cheery and forgotton card" regarding the native americans, and nothing was changed, and long live the white man who spreads cheer like santa claus. The only people that honestly believe that are fucking crazy. FUCKING CRAZY. It makes me wonder how many Americans foreigners actually talk to. I guess it's all the rich bitches backpacking across europe on daddys paycheck, but me and my friends don't share that mindset and I get rather offended by being part of that stereotype just because I was born in this country.

What the early settlers did to the Native Americans makes me sick. I have no Native American blood in my genes, but I think their views on the world, nature, and living are rad. Better than any current generation of any current civilization anywhere. I also like hallucinagins and that plays a part of it...anyways....

There's nothing we can do about it. Greed prevailed and a whole culture of people got fucked because they were'nt 'savvy' to the white man. Oh well, shit happens I guess. By the way I wonder why it's us "Americans" who get all the shit for it too...I never see the hate directed towards the English or the French or the Spanish....who all took advantage of the Native Americans. A side note to that is when it all comes down to it, we are a nation of muts....and we're muts because we are a mix of all of YOU Europeans....we are the ancestors and mixes of all the different races from different countries who came HERE TO CAPITOLIZE ON THE LAND THAT THEY ALL FELT WAS UP FOR GRABS.

damn euros need to lose your ego. Not all of us are thick headed like the images you see in the media.....

1 no, i don't believe all 'brown' people are hispanic.
2 i'm not european.
3 there may be some cultural slang difference in our use of hispanic.. I know there is with 'asian' 'arab' 'euro' etc, probably because yr definition changes with your proximity to the area.
i kind of didn't pay attention to anything else you said, since you seemed to do the same when reading any of my thoughts.

I never said those two things were the same, again.. Nit picking at definitions. Regardless i still believe that the us would be a very different place if not for the vast culture it contains. To me, foundation isn't simply documents.. Its so much more. Clearly we have different views there. But, my original point was that above, in defense of someone suggesting that the hispanic population should not be allowed to vote in general because they are incapable.. i guess its pretty funny that while trying to defend someone, this thread has gone on for so long over their importance or complete irrelevance to some, in a countries history.. Whatever i guess. Everyone has their own opinion.

so who the fuck won already

Besides the fact that I forgot you were from australia I was on point with everything else. You can't change your original point from foundation to evolution. We pay attention to these things. :-)

now lets all shut up, do some acid, and cuddle.

I'd like to thank THE WORLD for taking such a grand interest in my country.

it really makes me feel PROUD to know that despite what THE WORLD says, everybody secretly wishes that they were Amerikkkan. I mean, who really cares who gets elected elsewhere? certainly not me! why should I? I'm Amerikkkan. I piss oil and shit out little countries like the rest of yr's for breakfast.

HAHAHAH! FEEL MY MIGHT, THE WORLD; FEEL IT AND SHIVER IN AWE.

[insert booming laughter here]

now, if you'll please excuse me, it's time for my team of Nubian slaves to service my 10' penis.

bullshit! California is as fundamental to the formation of America as New York. It is simple, is california not a state of the United States of America? If yes, then the foundations of California are equally the foundations of America, because last time i checked CA was part of america, and so its foundations are the foundations of america as well. New york is not more america than cali, nor is pennsylvania more american than Texas.

America is a formative nation, there is no foundation period, it is a nation of continual change, and the western united states has been pivotal in this historic process. Further, the history you speak of is only applicable to a select proportion of faithful, patriotic white americans, however, unfortunately for they mythical version of america, Americans consist of a shitload more people than these white folks. The national myth of the "founding fathers" is bullshit, but Americans are more then the descendents of those musty old white dudes.

The foundations of america differ depending on the American you are speaking with, it is that simple.

I agree with the above. But I kind of gave up trying to get my point across.

Now this I have to see. Do you drum along whilst this is happening?

motherfucker, if i ever visit your town, i swear i'll buy you a beer.

why you even bother to respond to crap posts with solid, reasonable answers is beyond me-- maybe you're a vulcan missionary.

anyway, it's good to see signs of intelligent life on earth.

There was a nation called the United States of America before the realization of the Manifest Destiny. While you are arguing for a more inclusive American identity, which is not without merit, you still cannot deny that fact. A nation by the people and for the people is, by that phrase, defined by the people who populate it. Therefore as the nation grew larger, so has its identity changed. But as a matter of history, the United States began as thirteen English colonies. This entire discussion has been one of me arguing for the actual historic origin of the USA verses what I can only suppose of yours and pheonix points as the USA as a global power. Two very different times and two very different Unions. I deny that any hispanic population was significant in the first, but not the second.

gtfo hobo. this thread is fine without you.

I accept your point about mexicans and the first colonial period of the United States, however I can't accept that particular time as being limited as the formative period of US history. My arguement is simple, not some global geopolitical one, it is a logic based one. If there are other states in the US, then their origins also contribute to the formation of the United States. In california for example, indians and mestizos then called mexicans after mexican independence are a crucial formative people of the state. There was a lot going on before thousands of white people showed up to loot the mountains for gold.. their experiences are equally an American experience, equally formative, and should be included in the cannon of American formative experience. You can not discriminate in this regard, because America is bigger then the history of the WASP.

I simply can't agree with a racial view of history and I can't tell if you are advocating one, or claiming one of my interpretation, or both.

uh??



im fully employed. but do you harbor hatred against vagrants?



in what universe?

The "founding fathers" america was a racial concept, limited to white men. It excluded eastern europeans as not-white initially, excluded the indians as not people, and considered the Africans 3/5 to a white man, at least a bit above the other inferiors. The real america, the tangible america outside of the ideological theories of government, is one of many people. The WASP founding fathers experience thus is an extremely limited view of America, which excludes both historical and contemporary americans. again, bullshit I say! and ol america lovin indifferent to mexico !@#$% should have that beer with you, then you'll find mexicans are americans as well and their formative experience is an american experience as much as george washington.

Ha ha, "you'll find mexicans are americans as well."

Wow, fuck off.

tell that to the millions of mexican-americans who are United States' citizens, either by birth or naturalization, asshole. while you may live on mars, I live in Los Angeles..

I'm telling you to fuck off for your assumption that I am not strongly aware of the fact already. You, yourself, do come off as a racist at times.

by the way, if you hadn't noticed I never attacked your character once during this thread, merely your argument. and I only insulted you in response to your cursing me there, play nicer next time, stick to the issues, not the speakers, I'm not running for president remember?

What are you talking about?

...

You insulted me first with "you'll find mexicans are americans as well"!

Bradley, you have cut off the Black Knights limbs already. Don't listen to his pleads for a fight, despite the irritation you feel.

One of my best friends is an illegal immigrant and half of my friends are Mexican. It is a personal insult to assume that I don't consider them Americans and is a flagrant distortion of my argument to suggest that I do. But I suppose it isn't shocking of SuchFriends to engage in that level of intellectual dishonesty in order to perpetuate his dogmatic liberal sociological-centric interpretation. I knew I would regret taking him off of my ignore list.

Listen, I was not criticising your own racial sensitivities, nor calling you a racist, nor even making any kind of personal assessments of you own character, though you should know, the whole "i'm not racist my best friend is such-and-such" is a kind of cliche defense..

I was simply attacking your silly argument that


You have been arguing that because Mexican-Americans were not a part of the colonial "founding fathers" they play a limited role in the foundation of the US. But I disagree, if Mexican-Americans are in fact Americans, which we both obviously agree, then my argument is that THEIR experience is as EQUALLY formative and a part of the FOUNDATION of America as George Washington, because they are equally Americans and their experience is equally significant and formative of the over-all American experience.

I never made any assumptions about your own interpretation of people as americans, rather your assumption that america was only founded in 1776.

and I misunderstood your joke


though the fuck off part was rather obvious.

I'm done conversing with you. You don't deserve a reply.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pbradley again.

our studio-audience was polled to determine "what constitutes as no reply".

you said "You don't deserve a reply".

survey says:

XXX

ooooh. I'm sorry...

let's see if the AreDangerous Family can come back for the steal!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to floatingslowly again.