And the answer is to obfuscate this ethical twinge with an unconvincing egotism?

To answer your questions, I have an ipod that I haven't used in about two years. I do not have an iphone. I haven't purchased music in months. I can only assume some shit of mine has been made in sweatshops. None of this is an implicit endorsement of the conditions that produce them.

Your message isn't to consume less, it's to quit whining and keep your head down. Shit, you're more down this rabbit hole of anti-consumerist self-contempt that I can imagine. I remember reading it in between your "The Secret" go-get-em amoralism that you coached when the crash was just starting to hurt and some here couldn't find work.

Capitalism is shit, I'm pessimistic that socialism is capable of providing anything superior. This isn't sanctimonious leftist dogma, its a spiritual catch-22.

i'd rather have a dictator or some other shit running this country as long as they didn't pretend they weren't doing it. that's what pisses me off the most, these douchebags are no better than nazi death camp operators and they act like they're helping to advance the human race positively. example iraq: no reason to invade at all so it should've never happened or iraq should've been conquered and made part of the u.s. instead those assclowns hade to fabricate some reason to "liberate" the iraqis.

It's the record industry's own fault for spewing out disposable bubblegum while continually repackaging rock's glory days (the Beatles, the Stones, Led Zeppelin, etc.) and letting truly talented, groundbreaking artists rot on the vine for years. If the music business had any sense of progress, there would've been an iTunes long before there was a Napster. The technology was there.

well, then, mr.bradley, that's when we try to imagine a middle term with the lesser of evils.

and as for the record industry, they had plenty of time to reinvent and save themselves, they chose not to, so fuck them.

nobody is really complaining, except for lily allen.

You mean the ye olde Keynesian liberalism? Should I pick up Rawls again?

I doubt the existence of this middle with lesser evils.

didn't your grandma say it gets to a point you gotta make do with what you have?

I have grown to love you so..

That's all perfectly true but then those who blindly attack capitalism as some all-evil political monster don't see it as a progression out of those earlier (with the exception of apparatchiks) modes. Marx, as you know, was a massive believer in the merits of Capitaliism, he just didn't see it as the historical end point that many of those on the Right seem to (Fukuyama's whole 'End of History' thing, for example). Whether Marx was right in suggesting that a full working through of capitalism was crucial to providing the conditions necessary to support a progression into socialism is, of course, massively debatable, and has indeed been debated not just within centrist politics or the Right but even factions within the Left itself.

The problem with things like the anti-capitalist movement seems to be that it has no real vision of anything that might replace capitalism beyond some half-digested anarchism or, more usually, some sort of 'friendlier' capitalism. It's as though the movement itself can't really envisage an end of capitalism so has had to reconcile itself merely with trying to restrain it - 'ye olde Keynesian liberalism', as PBradley mentions already.)

I own both an iPhone and an iPod which I use frequently.

often, I dream of the day when the entire planet has been strip-mined so that all of gawd's chillun can experience my joy.

and if the "natives" complain, well, that's nothing that a neutron bomb can't fix.

That right it sounds great and only works in theory because we don't have enough people ready to live that way. Less government is only at the federal level. I'm not sure how it would work with exxon-valdez or Katrina but could it be any worst than how the present folks handle it?

I'm not sure if it is true about things being worse pre-capitalism, from what this guy says, and he seems credible, the middle ages were much more fruitful for the average person than is commonly thought
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOBWhVe68os

all I can honestly say is AMEN! You know I sincerely said some Rosary prayers last night because I felt so guilty for accidently leaving the sprinkler for an hour wasting more water than a hundred people would drink in a day. Its not about destroying capitalism, its about become religiously conscious consumers. We need to know how much resources our products consume, we need to know how much people are exploited for our prices to be competitively low..

after all it has been written, "Be careful not to bite and eat one another, lest you be consumed by each other!" Apostle Paul


Thats my point exactly. Its all the same facade year after year, Obama.. Bush.. Clinton.. Bush.. Reagon.. Carter.. what the fuck is all the difference? Obama's deficit is Bush's deficit.. Bush's military situation is Clinton's military situation.. It is a chain of mistakes, the names are only symbolic to keep historical reference, the individuals are powerless to control the forces at work.. If americans would get honest with themselves like other people in the world, and accept the myth of democracy to be rosy painted authoritarian system, perhaps we might stop depending on the big govt and focus on our tangible, local efforts instead of being so distracted, spun and brainwashed by politics.


Don't let the paranoia fool you, the record companies are not going anywhere. Sales may be down, but the record companies still make billions of dollars. Just because the pie is sliced more, does not make it smaller.

The only reason the left has to be so extreme in its rhetoric is because the right is so frighteningly insensitive to helping each other out. Social services, welfare, even public education are constantly attacked by the Rightists of all political systems who believe that the poor should fend for themselves, failing to understand that if you let the problem fester, it will inevitably find its way to your country clubs and gated communities. Ironically, rightists want less government, public services even education, but seem quite comfortable expanding military, police and prisons, all strict tools and economy of authoratarianism and aspects of totalitarian states..

would you like to go back if you could?

what is currently called capitalism is no more capitalism than socialism was actually socialism under the Soviets.

Its all about States controlling markets to the benefit of elites. profit is privatized, risk is socialized.

There will be no politics when I am overlord of the Earth

finally you speak some obvious and well-accepted truth. But its as Peter Tosh said my brother, "Suppose I tell some guys the truth (snaps fingers) guys drop dead seen?!"

someone has to pay for the physical infrastructure of wire and rotors and switches behind the scenes, all powered by ELECTRICITY, which is not free. The internet is NOT "green" - its POWERED and most likely from nukes somewhere along the line. Accessing the net requires some kind of technological interface, and Steve Jobs can recycle all the plastic he wants but making chips is not "green"...

have you seen how much Google/Yahoo searches have been modified by advertising? The Top 100 searches used to be based upon momentarily popularity and now it is based on advertiser interest. If you search something, the vast majority of the first ten pages of results will be advertiser oriented and generally trying to sell you something in relation to the search or at least send you to site somehow connected there of.

That's very true. What both systems ultimately suggest aren't so much problems with either Communism or Capitalism as the problems that can arise when a theory (regardless of whether it's Marx's or Adam Smith's) is put into practice in such a way that forces it to use actual people instead of idealised social 'types'.

what egotism? obfuscate what exactly?


come on, you're smarter than that-- we're all accomplices and you know it. at least those of us doing the buying. yes, you haven't had a job, you haven't had money, but when you did, you were.


sorry, secret what? i coached who? can you explain?

my message is what? keep your head down? fuck that shit. you've misread something.

about "some here couldn't find work": i lost work during the crash, you know? the majority of my clients (non-profits) shrank back or went under. we moved from a 3 bedroom house to a summer house-sitting gig to a 1 bedroom apartment. we adapted, hustled like motherfuckers, and survived. you didn't hear me crying here about anything and i'm doing well, thanks.

and i've paid my dues for having studied humanities, thank you. i've been a dishwasher, construction worker, waiter, pizza maker, underpaid teaching assistant, office temp, the list goes on forever. i know capitalism can be shit, i know what it's having no money, or how crap is the minimum wage, and i know what it means to live on rice and beans (literally, not metaphorically) --- i've never had much of what's called a "disposable income", hence i don't have any "collections" of anything except for used books i used to buy for 50 cents each.

meanwhile you're living at your parents free from homelessness, hunger and disease, and your only pain is that you can't go to a bar or buy a new ipod or any new music and nobody will pay you to be a philosopher.

i think you're a fucking pussy for feeling the need to take out your frustrations on me, but if you need the catharsis, by all means, go ahead if it will help you regain your balance.

now go stand outside of the home depot and make some money like the mexicans do, you fucking spoiled brat.


So you're paralyzed by lofty ideas while suffering neither hunger nor homelessness-- that's quite convenient. I wanna suffer like that too! With free cable. Grow some balls and go do something instead of moaning here. I mean anything. If you wanna be a revolutionary, then start your revolution instead of posting useless internet jeremiads. I mean seriously. Go be the Che Guevara of Orange County. Go write the 21 century answer to Plato's "Republic". Or go find a job.

I've never said "do nothing" or "give up and submit"-- I do live in reality and I have to deal with what's in front of me rather than the World of Ideas-- and in spite of my shitty income and various obstacles I've been doing volunteer work to pass universal health care legislation-- quite frustrating at the moment, but we'll see how that goes-- nowhere here have I said "put your head down and quit whining", and if you're reading that into my posts maybe you're working out some issues of your own. I mean the "quit whining" part yes, but "put your head down"? Ranting on the internet about the evils of capitalism is not "raising your head high" by the way-- it's just suburban spoiled bullshit. Like I said, if you hate capitalism, go and destroy it-- actively.

If you don't have the balls to be a revolutionary, the census bureau is hiring, by the way:
http://2010.census.gov/2010censusjobs/

--

and i gotta get back to work. read you later-- tomorrow, maybe.

ps- demonrail, chicka-- out of time to reply but i'll try later.

Bradders is too white to be Che.

now, go make me a pizza, woman!

I admire those who can read an entire long post by pbradley or knox without falling asleep halfway through.

Not a criticism of your post, sarram, which I understand and agree but I hate how Adam Smith is cornered into a philosopher of economics and little else. In my opinion, his best book isn't *The Wealth of Nations* but *The Theory of Moral Sentiment*. It's even more aggravating when libertarians use *Moral Sentiments,* which you can guarantee they're even more likely ever to read than *Wealth,* in order to justify contemporary capitalism as generous and empathetic.

I havent read this thread, and i will, but this is a primer for any of you who are worried that liberalminded people are accomodating far-right parties in an attempt to push their point.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whats-Left-L.../dp/0007229690

Even if you disagree, it has some key points on Chomsky, and other less respectable characters who dont use their position to help the left in oppressive societies (many of which would be SY fans im sure)

Sounds like he supported the Iraq war. Am I correct in thinking that?

That's an interesting point. But why exactly should we want to destroy capitalism in favor of something else, rather than creating a "friendlier" version (which in my opinion would be highly regulated and have strong sanctions against lobbying the government in any way)? I consider myself a realist, and capitalism isn't going away anytime soon. The best we can do is make it in people's and companies' interests to have a conscience. And we all know that the only way to do that is with regulation, sanctions and all the other things. I think we have all the tools necessary.

And if someone does come up with a much better idea, then we should use it. But things don't change overnight and there actually ARE benefits to capitalism for a majority of people, which is something anti-capitalist people generally like to pretend isn't true.

Yes

This:

The fact that you regret the inequalities your consumerism produces.

Yes, if I remember correctly, phoenix or someone was talking about how difficult things were and you gave the old "go to the mattresses" advice. I'm not saying it wasn't valuable or warranted, just that I sensed your own opposition to the system.


Perhaps I have. I'm already aware that complaining on the internet is inconsequential which is why I assumed that you were criticizing more than complaining on the internet.

But if I've misread you, you've equally misread me. I'm didn't mean to assault your credibility to speak upon the subject, nor insinuate that I've suffered proportionately more than you. In fact, I was only meaning to establish that you, too, know exactly what I've been talking about, this catch-22. But I must ask, where have you seen me complain about my situation? The only time I've mentioned my unemployment in this thread was in reply to Glice. The only other time I can remember mentioning my financial situation was an argument with sway but that was over the public healthcare option. Never have I made a thread complaining about my situation, nor even so much as a long post. All I've said is that capitalism sucks, a sentiment you seem to agree with. It seems like half of your reply is attacking the message board with me as exemplar, really. To be honest, I've only posted in the 'what have you bought' thread maybe about once.

I'm starting to suspect that you didn't really take my joke about slave mentality as a joke.

I think you already do.

Good, then that largely settles my dispute.


And because you care so much about how I am doing, I'm volunteering (being paid under the table) a part-time job as an teaching assistant for a Los Angeles after school GED course. It isn't much but I can pay for gas. Applied to the census about a couple months ago, too.

Sounds like something I might find interesting then.

"Beware..If you keep on biting and consuming each other, watch out lest you be consumed by each other."

Well, its interesting even if you dont think the war in 2003 was the right decision. It isnt a deconstruction of the arguements for or against that policy, its more about whether you can call yourself a proper liberal person if you dont explicitly and actively support liberal people in oppressive regimes.

It wont have much resonance unless youre British but if you are its well worth picking up.

I read that book too. Really interesting, especially the stuff on Bosnia. I definitely have a fair bit of sympathy with his overall point that the Left appears to have lost its moral compass in recent years. Christopher Hitchens has written a similarly themed book, the title of which escapes me but which is also good and focuses a bit more on American liberals than Cohn's does. Also, although largely dealing with the situation in France, Bernard-Henri Levy's recent book, The Left in Dark Times, makes similar points to those made by Cohn and is also excellent. There seems to be a real rift developing within what I suppose we have to call the Left intelligentsia in response to its overwhelming opposition to the war in Iraq. It's a fascinating debate I think.

im in love with !@#$%!, ideologically.

don't be daft.

if you're going to be witty you gotta keep it up, its hard work.

but anyway, im still waiting to know what would be a better system.

magical socialism

yes, i guess its better than trying to do something about things.

It's like Marquez crossed with Marx