Wow... now you are saying guns save lives. Fucking shallow and hideous if you ask me. The nuke at Hiroshima supposedly saved lives too. Now you are using reasoning like the US military. Congrats!

and even after all that abuse he just wanted to join a band and play folk music and he had FANS. many musicians in SoCal actually enjoyed Charlie Manson;s tunes, and many of them actually dicked him around promising record deals and even stealing his songs.

It just makes me sick that people think the "family" members who did the killin were under some sort of hypnotic mesmer that the evil charles manson was able to conjure u[p, as if he was alisteir crowley or something....Those fucks knew exactly what they were doing.

Yet the murderous bitches and assholes get more sympathy from the media and from regular idiots than ol charlie.

why do you think COPS carry guns? to SAVE LIVES/PROPERTY. that is the same RIGHT that every human being has as well, whether or not their country grants them that right.

i'm sure you and the people around you aren't the type of gun-wielding maniac, but don't you think there should be some sort of regulation on who gets to own a weapon and who doesn't? in my opinion, someone with a violent past or a history of depression and suicide attempts shouldn't be able to just get a weapon.

there is HEAVY regulation as to who owns a gun in th USA.

If you have ever been in a mental institution you cannot legally purchase a gun.

If you have ever been convicted of a felony you are nto allowed to legally purchase a gun

If you have been certified mentally deficient/retarted you are not allowed to purchase a gun.

You have to be an adult.

You ahve to have a registered driver's license and in many cases wait through a days-long waiting period while they check your background. It depends on the state.

of course, as we all know, anyone who wishes to buy ANYTHING illegally has the means to do so, for there exists a black market for anything and everything in any and every country in the world.

In japan it just costs a LOT more to get a gun illegally , so only the rich can afford personal firearms, and since the rich do no get stopped by cops routinely, no one will ever see they are breaking the law. The same is true in the UK.

I'm cool with an organized force like the police having weapons, that makes sense. But I barely trust citizens to operate their cars properly... forget giving them weapons. It is an idiotic and archaic idea that directly leads to the U.S. being the world leader in gun violence *waves american flag*. Fucking RETARDED.

If you can't see how the old couple having a gun saved their lives while encountering a knife wielding escaped murder which led to his capture, as well as prevented any other encounters to be had if he wasn't captured.... than I can't help you?

i agree with that, that guns should be licensed the way you get one to drive a car (this would require study and passing an exam on gun safety).

the only problem with that is that this is enshrined in the american constitution as a right, so you can't put a license on a right. you only need permits for conceal carry (e.g., packing a gun under your jacket wherever you go). this varies again by state to state. in virginia i think now you can carry guns in the open.

while driving is a privilege and not a right, owning a gun is a right and not a privilege, by the law of this land. the only people who are barred from owning guns are convicted felons.

peculiar, huh? but it is what it is... changing that culture in a country of over 310,000,000 people would be extremely hard. remember than unlike your own country, this beast is made of 50 mini-countries (many bigger than whole european countries) plus a number of territories, over a huge chunk of land that would take you some 4 or 5 days to drive across.

I wold sooner place my trust in my armed neighbor than a fucking COP

but to each their own.

and as far as the USA being the leader in gun violence, that is BULLSHIT.
straight u[p BULLSHIT.

go count the "gun violence" deaths in Burma, in Sierra leone, In fucking MEXICO, in Nicaragua, in the Sudan, etc. Those countries do not deserve mention though by the media because they are full of BRWON people and they do not matter to the status quo media. gun deaths are not reported, crime is severely underreported in those nations. in the USA, if anything, we are masters of filling out fucking reports.

In fact that is all cops do!!! they fill out reports! Most never ever fire their weapon in their entire career, not even ONCE. They just show up AFTER the crime, fill out a report, and go on about their business, which is collecting taxes from the people by means of traffic and speeding and parking tickets.

Tex says they were using amphetamine a lot, which Charlie didn't like (he couldn't use it as control drug I think).

I think you name five things there and call it HEAVY regulation. I don't know, I tend to think americans think it's not the goverment's obligation to enforce security, and it's not their right to demand it. But I said a million times (and i goes ignored) cases in which people manage to protect themselves with guns aren't the majority - most of the time people increase their chances of getting hurt. Those aren't lunacies from pacifists, those are statistics.

About Charles Manson, yeah rough childhood. Lots of people have it, but not all people are sociopaths. What about that whole thing about starting war against "the blacks"?

but knox, you do not seem to grasp what others here are saying, which is dead truth, that people defending themselves from crime is NOT NEWS, unless the crime occurs anyway,.

news media do not cover that, not even in the "human interest" section of the local TV news.

It is underreported and that is why you and many others have the false impression that the instances where ownership of a gun turns bad far outnumber th instances where gun ownership actually benefitted the gun owner.

But hold on. Nobody said anything when I asked:

If you can't carry potentially dangerous stuff why can't you purchase bombs? Why can't you legally buy crack?

What's the difference?

charles manson never said he was gonna start war against the blacks. that is once again, misinformation perpetrated by the status quo powers that be.

charles manson , like a lot of regular people in the USA, white and black, thought a RACE WAR was going to occurr. he sought to escalate it, by some reports, or to actually trigger it into beginning. he wanted everyone to fight themselves and leave him and his people alone in the desert where they would "survive" until the race war was over.

It's not an IMPRESSION, those are numbers, facts.
News do not tend to cover suicides either, which happen quite often.

you can buy alcohol.

you can buy gunpowder

you can buy thermite

you can buy potassium, or any other highly volatile minerals and chemicals.

you can buy untold knives and swords

the reason crack was treated so harshly in the late 80's and early 90's and the reason they had fucked up sentences for crack cocaine as opposed to poweder cocaine (which have been lessened recently) was not because crack kiled and hurt people. (it sur4e fucking did though) but because white people were not making the money off the crack. it was bklacks, and hispanics.

white people make the big money off the powder cocaine, and it is still widely available, not prosecuted like crack cocaine is, and quite often enjoyed by the power elite in all realms of society without fear they will be prosecuted or arrested for it.

Rob, I don't think you can discount the impact of group sex, group acid sessions, and intensive psychological manipulation of dianetics and old fashioned bullyism along with poor nutrition among people who have been trained from birth to admire and obey authority. I'm sure you know most men can be easily manipulated with poon and Charlie used to send his girls to go with certain people he needed something from. There is actually a good film about The Family that shows a really wonderful caring communal group that at some point turns ugly and began to eat itself (the murder of Shorty Shea for example).

I'd like to own a .50 caliber, for hunting squirells of course http://www.barrett.net/

I know all about that stuff. charlie deserved to go to jail for what he insitgated, but to remain in jail for life? I don't know. rapists get 20 year terms. child abusers get 10-20 year terms. time off for good behaviour, those sick fucks are on the street again in 12 years.

Facts:

- White people make money with guns. In fact, nobody cares because in general it's the poorer that kill themselves and each other in the end.

- The number of fatal accidents related to people owning guns is way superior to the number of times someone actually manages to sucessfully protect themselves from any sort of crime.

- The motive of MOST crime is to do with money/goods. The fact that people find guns easily available turns that into a more dangerous event, with serious consequences.

- MOST people are killed by someone close to them, someone they know or for stupid reasons that are unrelated to strangers and crime.

- Most guns criminals have were once purchased legally. While people can still buy them freely, industries will continue making them which will end up leading to more guns with criminals and less control over them.

- The responsability of security should ideally belong to the state, citizens should be demanding that rather than feeling like they can do justice and protect themselves - they can't.

As for the Manson bullshit:

- He was a sociopath. As far as everyone knows, he was a racist, preached violence and planned those crimes. Sociopaths don't even need drugs - they are naturally able to be leaders, specially over vulnerable people.

If the UK's population is the same as the US, the murder rate in the UK would be 8.5/100,000 people. It proves strict gun laws don't work.

Many sociopaths are CREATED, as Manson was.

fuck THAT SHIT. fuck a whole lot of THAT SHIT

the state is responsible solely for securing the state from OUTSIDE threats, not internal crime, and not on keeping individuals safe from other individuals. The state that focuses on internal affairs, like the usa is currently, is on a slippery slope to totalitarianism, cuz, you know, it's for everyones best interests! they must be safe! Take the guns! put cameras on every corner! film everyone! no privacy! Those tactics worked for Nazi germany (they used tattletales and snitches instead of cameras) and it is working just fine in the UK right? cuz you guys have no crime right?

I'm with science on this one. People are born sociopaths.
Things that happen to them might influence how dangerous they will eventually become, but sociopaths are individuals with low or no activity in the frontal area of the brain, namely, uncapable of what we call love/empathy/mercy. On average, 1 between 30 people.

oh dear oh dear.

the role of guns, specifically hand guns is to shoot people. by your argument everything could be banned because of possible miss use.

the idea that other people are carrying guns so everyone has to defend themselves is so silly and so ingrained in the american psyche. instead of watching mindless tv, listening to mindless music and posting on internet forums why dont you write to your local politician and ask them for more gun control.

then why do you have the police?

Citizens can't protect themselves with guns??? You live in a small and sheltered world. You obviously have skimmed right past my references of citizens protecting themselves? As far as "citizens demanding security from their state"... that's fucking hilarious! how's that working out for you? Say no more, you obviously live in a fairy tale land that I've yet to experience. God forbid you wake up in the middle of the night and hear people rummaging around in your house.... how will the state swoop in and inject justice into that situation?

your list of facts is just a heavy dose of narrow-minded favoritism. You've crafted an unjust best-case / worst-case scenario in favor of your opinion.... most of which is just speculation and assumption, nothing resembling "fact".

Let's just say hypothetically speaking because I assume you have little to no experience with what you're talking about: say you have a good friends as neighbors. You've known for years, BBQ together, get together play Pictiionary, read bible stories... the works. One day "guns" come up and they mention, oh yeah, we've got pistol we keep in the nightstand.. and so on. Would that change the way you think about them? Would you suddenly fear for them or be afraid of them? Would you assume they are contributing to crime? ......and so on?

I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the world.

And once again, I'm talking numbers.

America and Gun Violence

• Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
• The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
• American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

I can't look right now, but I can't be repeating myself either: if you read stats you'll see carrying a gun make your chances of dying in the event of a crime much greater.

I realise you'll think those numbers aren't significant and/or right, but I really can't be looking for data right now. Some of my friends disagree with me, we often debate the subject like adults.

i think knox knows more about this subject than you.

so, there's "numbers" for everything:

you can state numbers on deaths from food poisoning or adverse reactions to prescriptions, etc....

the coalition to stop gun violence needs to focus on a lot more than removing guns.... responsible parenting, where's that fall into the equation? Don't you think if they started charging parents with their kids gun crimes, parents would leave their own foggy minded worlds long enough to intervene with the kids activities and responsibilities.

So 80 people die from gun violence? Sounds scary but lets look at the big picture... how many people are dying every minute from medical malpractice (something that can be avoided)? Of these gun death figures, can the be assured that if there are no guns these murders or deaths aren't going to occur either way.

and all in all, aside from bitching, what is your solution.... they round up every legally owned gun in the country?

good,

we're talking about the poster demanding protection from their state right?

Tex Watson had went MIA for a bit. The ranch receives a phone call from Watson's girlfriend's house. She is kept there at gunpoint by a black guy who is demanding some money Tex gave him for some pot he was supposed to get, but never delivered. Guy stated that if he didn't get his money soon, he was going to kill the girl. Manson and one other family member went to the house, long story short, Manson shot, and THOUGHT he killed this individual that he assumed for different reasons was a member of the black panther party. After said event, Manson felt strongly that there would be an attack on the ranch by other black panthers...a "war". Not the widescale bullshit Vincent Bugliosi would have everyone believe. I'm sorry...Manson's (and others....) account of this event sounds much more logical.

The guy ended up not being dead. Bugliosi found him, and stressed interest in having the bullet removed from his body so he could see if it matched up with a pistol the family had been using. He wouldn't allow them to remove the bullet, because he said it made for a "good story".

And despite that...it was the 60's, lots of people felt as if there might be a war between the whites and the blacks.

Do yr homework, please.

And yes, lots of kids go through shit. Not many are given up by their moms, placed into juvenile delinquent homes, sodomized by other boys as gaurds watch (as well as having chewed tobacco stuffed up their asses as lube), all kinds of other shit Rob already stated, all WELL documented. Anyone would be fucked up....but, he did do well for himself for a while...he's never tried to make himself off as being some sort of saint, no one is. Dude just has a message, some of which is worth listening to.

Def. more entertaining and well thought out than this dream-world-human-nature-defying bullshit you've been preachin'. Sorry...yr cool, but still...it's bullshit.

+ I love how Jon Boy suffers seriously from expressing anything beyond "epic fail", "they know more than you", etc.

Shit's weird. Sorry Jon Boy.

well i am talking about gun ownership and i think thats what you are trying to do but its hard to make out in your ill thought out posts.

having seen first hand the damage guns can do i think i can speak with a degree of experience and say that guns, especially handguns should be banned.

well i did explain more, read back.

epic fail.

after hurricane katrina, we were all without utilities, contact or anything for about a month where I'm at. After a little while cops would randomly ride through the neighborhood to scope things out. One stopped with window rolled down and said "do y'all have any guns?" Not knowing where he was going with it, I hesitantly answered yeah and showed him a shotgun I had in my doorway. He just smiled, nodded and said "Good!" and drove away.

there's you're protection from the state

what I like about jon boy is that he's so british he doesn't even bother.

But he tries, and so do you....clearly more than anyone else in this thread.

Whats that say?

don't be hesitant to be vague now

well indeed.

when i was younger, 12 i found that my dad had a gun which i and a freind worked out how to gain access too. it was quite old and me and my friend found great enjoyment in shooting cans, bits of wood etc. i didnt know that my friend had re loaded the gun and when another friend came over to look at what we where doing i shot him accidentally. he didnt die and was ok after a while but it just goes to show the fact that owning a gun can lead to serious consequences. something to think about.

you could argue that it should not have been so easy to access but kids have an uncanny ability to find their way into anything so it makes me shudder to think there are people with whole arsenals at their disposal and virtually no control from state or parent. more terrible accidents waiting to happen.

My points you have been ignoring:

- The stats that are relevant to this discussion are the ones that point out how people have MORE chances of getting hurt than they do of defending themselves when they have a gun.

- How the gun industry is the same one that makes the guns criminals use.

- How you pay taxes for things like the police, but then you say the government doesn't have to protect citizens.

- On suicide: you will say people who want to commit suicide can do that in many ways, true. The same goes for murder. But when someone has a powerful weapon that can do much damage in less than a second, there's no time to think or to defend yourself: it's done, and it happens more often than it does when people don't have guns and the consequences are worse. That goes for suicide, passionate crimes, anger etc.

- I don't have stats on this, but I'm quite sure most people killed with guns are not expecting it, so it wouldn't matter if they had one or not.