oh and Suchfriends where da eff have ya been?

I have seen NO opposition amongst pro legalization groups about prop 19. Care to share some links? Or is this your opinion?

of course legalization groups support it, but they are showing their naivete..

have you read the prop? Its is poorly written, vague and perfectly meaningless! It is doomed to failure, even if it passes, it will go to the courts and get overturned, not just because of the laws, but because the prop itself is not well-written as law. it even contradicts itself in several places, it is truly half-baked..

if it was meant to pass or had any real chance it would have been drafted with all the specifics of any law which should be taken seriously. BUT, as I said, it has definitely been a great boost to the cannabis movement, and many californians from all backgrounds are increasingly lenient about cannabis consumption.

The law which the governor signed today is MUCH more beneficial, as it has the tangible benefits of being an actual law. under the new law, cannabis is no longer a misdimeanor, so if I were to get arrested on the street I don't have to report it to my boss like I did before, and it won't fuck up my employment like it did the last four times I was arrested for possession.. further, most cops won't even write the ticket, as many courts have deprioritized convictions of under an ounce, the DA throws it out. Just like cops will often let you go for a traffic ticket with a warning cuz it aint wort all the trouble, so will they now be even more lenient than they already have as of recent.
I count my victories where I can get em, and I only invest my spirit into potential success, besides, I been underground with herb for so long I've started to like being a pirate about it ;)

I been living on newspapers, coffee, guitar strings and prayer books in an isolated bubble slightly outside y'all's patch of the Multiverse.. I am only resurfacing momentarily, soon I am off again.


"rasta passing through.."

Now that I know it is only your opinion and nothing else I respectfully disagree. Not a single pro legalization organization has raised issues with the way the law is written and it has a majority lead at his point. Instead of being that horribly anal you could look at it as the best stepping stone we have to date, unless you are against legalization that is...

call it just my opinion all you'd like, but much like many ballot measures of all kinds of laws, this one is not drafted correctly and will never be implemented, even if it were to pass the election.

For example, it does not specify how many plants you can possess, and only suggests but does not specify how much cultivated cannabis you can possess. Prop 215 is much more specific, it tells you how many plants you can have growing and how many mature, budded plants you can possess, and how much drying herb you can possess. Since Prop 19 does not in fact specify, lawyers and courts will naturally interpret what it does say which is an ounce, and if you ever grew any herb in your life you would no that by limiting it to an ounce basically makes growing pointless. Further, how much fresh cannabis can I possess? Is it part of the ounce? So can I have only an ounce of fresh (ie, on the plant) and dried cannabis together? Prop 215 elaborates just the answer to this question saying exactly how many vegetative plants you can grow (irregardless of weight) and how many mature plants you can possess (irregardless of weight) and how much drying cannabis you can possess (specifically by weight, usually a pound or less), where as Prop 19 leaves an enormous, illegal and impossible hole..

It contradicts itself in several other places..

I'm telling you, there is nothing necessarily wrong with legalization legislation, however Prop 19 specifically is a bogus law.

I am not against legalization, I am against wasting our time or hope on Prop 19. If anything, the best thing they could have done was simply re-draft several aspects of the existing Prop 215 to say "for personal/recreational use" rather than just "medical" and then the law would be fine and dandy.

In other words, try again next year. With legalization, we have been fighting this fight for 80 odd years, and we shall keep fighting, and Prop 19 is not a good weapon in the fight, it is a blade of brittle steel that will break on first contact with the hard edge of the opposition. Where as, incremental decriminalization as a proven history of success, and will surely be the route for future success. Aim for cannabis to be similar in American law to alcohol, which is not necessarily legal, it is in fact restricted. Americans would never suggest out-right legalization, but they can swallow decriminalization which will inevitably lead to legal but restrict use and possession. And the law which Arnold signed today leads us exactly in that direction. yesterday a misdimeanor, today a minor infraction, tomorrow free and legal but restricted possession/use.

I am honest and pragmatic about my cannabis cultivation and consumption, and I understand how slow and steady it takes to move the hearts and minds of people to accept cannabis as perfectly normal and legitimate as a bottle of wine.. (which doctors say to drink 2 glasses a day for health alone, just as some folks should consume two spliff a day for their mental health instead of a potent concoction of anti-anxiety/anti-depressants)

One step at a time brother. We gotta crawl before we can run.
Get behind this shit holmes!

You are looking at it the wrong way SuchFriends

If it becomes legal which this bill is attempting to do why would you have to have an amount or certain amount of plants mature or otherwise when it's legal to have it own it and smoke it why would they have to set a controled amount?
I can have 35 cases of booze in my cellar if I want because Alcohol is legal so if grass is legal what does it matter what I have?"

^
probably why not one pro legalization organization has had a problem with it.

the proposition clearly states that only an ounce or less is allowed, and since it does not specify a difference between fresh and dried cannabis, then by default the law is up to the interpretation of law enforcement as to what constitutes fresh and dried. But as it is now, an ounce is an ounce and that is the clearly specified limit.
SB 420 from 2004 clearly defines these matters, as 8 ounces of dried cannabis unless local/county government allow more (such as in Mendocino County which just in May upped the legal amount of cultivation from 25 plants to 99, in LA county its the state law of 9 vegetative plants and 6 mature plants and 8 ounces of dried cannabis) for medical growers..

so Prop 19 is not specific enough, but then again Prop 215 was not that specific either (which is why SB 420 was drafted) however the difference was Prop 215 only covered medical use, which was quite a bit less impacting then legalization for the 30 odd MILLION californians over the age of 21 who prop 19 affects.. That is precisely why even if the ballot measure passes the election, it will get shot down in the courts until it carries language like in SB 420 to specify cultivation as there is literally a risk of MILLIONS of legal misunderstandings by the confusing language of the proposition..

Further, Prop 19 discusses sales and local taxation but does not quite specify the logistics on how to enforce this, had for example it designated a state-wide tax code and sales regulation standards and also established a state-wide agency to deal with enforcement and collection of such revinues (such as the Prop 10 cigarette tax in 1998 which established a specific fund and agency to collect and distribute the revinues from the tax)..

Like I said, better luck next time.

BUT AGAIN, the SB1449 bill signed yesterday is a landmark achievement, now possession is simply a traffic citation, which does not go on any record nor do you have to declare such arrests to any agency which asks (such as employers and background checks)..

Legalize It and I-man will advertise it (fo sho!!) but Prop 19 does not legalize it according to current standards of california law, and as such will be declared illegal by the Courts (and of course the Obama administration has also reiterated that while it has no intention of prosecuting Prop215 cases, it will indeed put full federal force against any legalization attempts by ANY states as the prop violates Federal Narcotics Scheduling and also the Drug-Free Work Place Act..)

jah! rastafari

thank gawd somebody else fucking gets it.

I've been saying just as much for months.

props.

You two are misinterpreting the new prop or pro legalization organizations would be all over it. For example the specified ounce limit is what you can have on you in public... that doesn't mean you can't have more at home (fresh or dried).

Again, show some links to this being more than just your opinion OR show me your lawyers degree. Otherwise feel free to continue with the hot air that ain't helping legalization one bit.

while you often may have good points to make or may support worthy causes, how come you always argue dunce-like?

e.g., "show me your law degree"

show us your law degree first to prove that your wishful thinking has not been a bunch of caca all along.

i'm not saying you're wrong or suchfriends is right. i'm sayin, you have a very stupid way to argue things. it's like you have the heart of a liberal but the brains of a teabagger. "show me links..."

suchfriends argued his point well-- can't you refute him without the "show me links" pathetic answer of last resort? what do you think links are, magic fairy dust for the mind? irrefutable truths from beyond? you're using the fallacy of appeal to authority to cover up your lack of a proper response.

you want a link to explain that? here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

now, refute suchfriends with a good argument, or ask him to clarify things, or shut the fuck up, but please avoid this 3rd-grader-with-a-computer type of discussion you're accustomed to carry out. it's embarrassing.

sorry i intervened in somebody else's fight, but utterly dumb posts in the morning give me hives. if you want your cause to win at least learn how to properly argue for it. "show me your law degree"-- this type of horribly desperate answer is disturbing enough to make a grown man cry.

While you may be trying to compliment me, I'd rather not be patronized.

Every pro legalization organization supports prop 19. I simply ask for them to back up their point of view past their own opinion. I don't understand why this is too much to ask. Let prop 19 take care of legalization and let future laws take care of the details if needed. It seems pointless to go against the best chance at legalization America has ever seen. SB1449 will be a moot point in all of this hopefully and only frees up legal resources (courts) and doesn't add any added tax revenue.

You do know that patronising means talking down to someone? I just want to be clear that you've understood what you've just typed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_19_(2010)

This I believe is the real place to go for understanding. Your link is a back handed attempt to make some one look foolish imo.

So according to this the bill states that I can carry and ounce and I can grow as much as I want in a 25 ft square area of my house or land that I own. Then it will be up to the local cities to decide if they want to license
places to sell it or allow people to smoke on their property. It will be up to the cities to decide if they want to allow you to carry more than an ounce.
So the actual vagueness of the bill stems from the fact that it throws it back to the cities to decide how they wish to handle it including taxing it.
Although you know the state is going to apply their own tax to it which will probably be 50 bucks an ounce.

So from what I read on this site while it does state an ounce as the starting point it isn't concrete. There is room to change it which obviously is going to happen once it's ratified.

Right now it's running 52 for 48 against from the polls I saw.

this is the point that you don't understand. prop 19 will be OVERTURNED immediately.

if "te best chance at legalization" is a half-ass attempt, then it's going to be even longer than I've feared.

the Feds won't let this stand. the Feds will be the ones financing the DEA to come knocking down doors of growers (if only to make a point).

all the weed smokers that think "yay, man, I can, like, grow my weed and, like, smoke it on the beach, dude"* will find themselves not only in jail for federal mandatory minimums, they'll also find themselves charged with tax evasion.

like, good times, man, dude.

ps: my law degee is in my pants. yr welcome to see it.


*this is, like, california.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you.
When every organization supports a proposition you know they've had their legal dudes have a look. So when I see a handful of schmucks sitting at their keyboards, tapping away from their highchair... well, I don't usually buy it. Trust the source.

God... such douchery.

which means that those plants that yr growing in yr 25 square ft area can only add up to 1 oz. lol?

has anyone here actually grown weed? even a dwarf afghani will produce almost a pound.

don't ever answer the doorbell.

kettle calling pot black..

[Eric Holder, US Attorney General] made the comments in a letter to former chiefs of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the letter, dated Wednesday.
"We will vigorously enforce the CSA against those individuals and organizations that possess, manufacture or distribute marijuana for recreational use, even if such activities are permitted under state law," Holder wrote.
He also said that legalizing recreational marijuana in California would be a "significant impediment" to the government's joint efforts with state and local law enforcement to target drug traffickers, who often distribute marijuana alongside cocaine and other drugs. Holder said approval of the ballot measure would "significantly undermine" efforts to keep California communities safe.

STATES RIGHTS!!!

I was talking to some other people the day about HBO's new series Boardwalk Empire, which is about the Prohibition era. People wanted alcohol and as always, organized criminals provided it for them. Along with it came violence and corruption. The mobs lost signifcant profit, influence, and all but went out of business for while after Prohibition was repealed.

It will be the same way with pot. No, drug cartels won't be ENTIRELY put out of business by legalization, but they'll take pretty big hits (not in that way). Unfortunately, most legislators don't get that and prefer the backward, draconian "One Nation under GOD" way of doing things, but like a certain line in a once decent space opera series said, "The more you tighten your grip, the more [we'll] slip through your fingers".

i hope that means the government is trying to grow some really good weed

if anything, the Prop 215 leniency which has created a market of licensed, registers yet technically law-breaking "medicinal" users who are in fact just herb smokers is a sham, its the nazis smoking us out into the open, then BAM right for the kill shot. They want all the growers with their pants down... thats what they did in colombia with this Plan Colombia nonsense, essentially the same tactics of the Opium Wars so the CIA/govt backed cartels can keep sending the profits back the the nameless, faceless vampires who run the game (and the world for that matter) ;)

I say fuck em!


stay underground, stay out of order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY6TI...ayer_embedded#!

Proposition 19 - California will make recreational pot use legal November 2nd

Or not

what a crap election. It just shows how retarded Americans really are.

shocking!!

el oh elle!

yes.

Wow...really? I'm surprised so many people still think that way. Well, at least I live in Canada where weed is pretty much acceptable anywhere, but would have been a big step to decriminalization across north america if this went through.

Oh, and hey Prop 19 supporters, guess what? The McRib is back!

It isn't about the Majority Vote. It is WHO COUNTS the Vote.

In Hinduism, sadhu, or shadhu is a common term for a mystic, an ascetic, practitioner of yoga (yogi) and/or wandering monks. The sadhu is solely dedicated to achieving the fourth and final Hindu goal of life, moksha (liberation), through meditation and contemplation of Brahman. Sadhus often wear ochre-colored clothing, symbolizing renunciation.Sadhus are not unified in their practices. Some live in the mountains alone for years at a time, eating only a few bananas. Others walk around with one hand in the air for decades. Still others partake in the religious consumption of charas (hand-made cannabis hashish) and contemplate the cosmic nature and presence of God. As i . Keep puffin. It Will Come Together.

^^^ exactly why this [idiotic] bill didn't pass.

stoners spent the day eating bananas, walking around with one hand in the air and hoping that the more they smoke, the sooner it will all get better.

I've always been pro-legalization, but I'm starting to think that stereotypical stoner disfunctionality will always trump logic in the matter.

all the stoners I know voted.

why elections are indeed a facade and political theatre at best, if the numbers reflect anything accurately (which appears so if you have been paying attention to this debate over the past 6 months) 3.4 MILLION californians essentially declared openly that they are completely cool with cannabis use, possession and production. And further, amongst the 3.9 million people who voted against it, (a deficit of only a few hundred thousand people btw) it does not automatically equate that they are adamantly against cannabis, just that they were against this particular legislation.

So that being said, this was in fact a positive result. Nearly have the "voters" agreed, and many more may have been sympathetic even in voting against the law. The social climate is changing radically in the favor of realism and common sense. People in California are often more accepting of cannabis then say alcohol and especially tobacco (which the taboo against is in vogue right now)..

Most of the newspapers, analysts, a lot of politicians, education communities, even law enforcement have expressed positive or neutral sentiments regarding cannabis. I love this, that the debate could even be so open, so public, and that people can feel confident to express their honest opinions without being ostracized or antagonized. While Sheriff Lee Baca of LA was an open and vocal critic, LAPD Chief Charlie Beck absolutely refused to issue and official opinion (suggesting sympathy, though I am very very upset with the way in which Beck has handled the recent assassination by the LAPD in Westlake )

The BEST and most reasonable approach, and one which is very viable considering the social climate is shifting in the positive direction, is for whats called deprioritization which is what West Hollywood municipal DAs have pursued and which Vancouver in Canada has had for two decades now. The law is left exactly as it is, but the DA and the courts refuse to prosecute a SINGLE possession case, and throw them all out of court for $30 court costs.. In the long run the cops stop writing the citations and making the busts because the courts are so lenient, and what happens is for all intents and purposes, cannabis is legal. This is California's experience as of the past decade. Ten years ago Prop 215 was still getting a lot of slack and only a few places in cali recognized it. While today only 10 counties and 18 large municipalities recognize Prop 215, they remain the largest by numbers. The same is happening with deprioritization in general, several cities have done this and LA county is well on its way.. Even five years ago I got hastled all the time for very small amounts of cannabis and have been arrested several times, prosecuted four, but not ONCE in the past 5 years! While I get stopped and ran for warrants at least weekly (which involves being searched, handcuffed and thrown in the cage of the car for 15 minutes but its an inconvenience and humiliation which I have grown quite accustomed to so fuck it) they don't even acknowledge the herb that is consistently in my pocket, and they generally leave it in my pocket, or if they do take it out, they give back, EVERY TIME, even the time they put a gun to my head!

This is your best bet, count your victories and learn from your losses, but don't let silly or naive things dissuade you..

what are you doing (wrong) that leads you to being arrested weekly?

and by wrong, I mean, so as to be caught.

literally nothing (I am dead serious) I didn't say arrested, I said, stopped, handcuffed, searched, thrown in the cage and ran for warrants (this is technically called a felony stop, which is in fact illegal in most circumstances). This is the process of being detained, or as the police tend to call it "saying hello"

last week I got stopped, searched, and nearly cuffed and thrown in the cage if it weren't for the intercession of the Virgin, all for walking down the street to get a newspaper at 7am!

I didn't look shady, I didn't look suspicious, I didn't do a single thing wrong, and in all honesty and seriousness, they just harrassed me, but I am well used to it by now.

my friend, if I was doing things wrong all the time, don't you think I would not be let go so often? Right now, I'm batting a thousand on getting let go, but only .250 in actually not getting stopped in the first place ;(

i'm not even to go into why pot shouldn't be legal. it should be decriminalized, not full out legal. i'm not saying any more than that because i'll be ranting for 3 days.

legalize suchfriendsaredangerous!

I don't smoke pot, but the bass player and drummer in my band do (and I try to get contact highs when hanging around them, even though the scent of weed is nasueating at times). I want it to be legal so I don't get busted in case some overly sensitive neighbor moves in next door and calls the cops on us for being too loud.

But Prop 19 discussion aside, you are 100% correct. This is why I am a monarchist, honestly!

Elections are one of the highest forms of political theater. They are not real, they are entirely scripted, contrived and deceptive forms of expression, communication and entertainment. They do not necessarily determine political outcomes, rather they serve as opportunities for socio-political manipulation through such psychological tools such as group think, peer pressure, mass hysteria, inherent tendencies towards the syntonic, and the general yielding to authority which most people do, even if it simply misperceived..

For example here in california, Jerry Brown and the DEM nazis won over Meg Whitman and the GOP fascists right? Wrong.

We have all been manipulated through media, through group think, through phone banks and cadreism where we believe the misinformation.

Folks believe the Democrats will save them, so they go with them, but in reality the California DEMS are in the pocket of the prisons, the cops and the unions, and not necessarily any of the interests of the people. Essentially, California has the philosophy of "lock em all up and let God sort em out" and quite a sizable percentage jobs and investment are in relation to law enforcement and incarceration. This is why they love the Drug War, they get a lot of bullshit funding and authority and ability to incarcerate people and literally make money off the head count, and in the process justify their own existence which in fact is quite redundant to say the least.

Did the Republicans really lose? No, they still got a lot of seats in the state and local level, they still have a powerful lobby for greedy, cut-throat businessmen.. Meg Whitman and the GOP made an investment in clout, and they got it! Whitman and Carly were just a rally, to get the pro-business interests mobilized, and over-all in the national election over $4 BILLION was spent, about 50-50 on each side. I'd say the GOP rabble-rousers were just instigating the Dems to equally over spend and saturate the country with all this brainwashing.. Look at Prop 24 passing, now businesses still get their ridiculous tax breaks here, and while prop 23 was shot down, the oil industry still pays the lowest taxes in california than out of any other 49 states in US! The rich will keep on getting richer..

Elections are a theater designed to get us all in pseudo-involvement and to continue to believe in the hype, the myth, and to let them continue to control us and exploit us and put us in prison.. fuck that!

Now Californians naively believe that at least they tried, and at least some of their voice was heard, but in reality the election does not determine the outcome, it is only a kind of litmus test for the government to see the social climate and how far they can push us, and also for the government to continue to manipulate us into the systematized deception that we have some, any, kind of democracy..

the election was indeed a bunch of crap, but they all are..