Yet, even with all its eloquence and equations, the current cosmological explanations fall short of explaining the Big Bang any deeper than when Saint Augustine affirmed that the material world was "created" ex nihilo. All our current observations break down in the fraction of a second just after the Big Bang. Further, we have two contradicting scientific philosophies, one at the macro and the other at the micro, which currently have yet to be mathematically reconciled..

no, sorry. they don't.

christians constantly constantly say things like that, every little bit of wonderous unexplained fantasticalness in science is used to wedge god in there.

its called "the god of the gaps".

eg. "so we dont know what happened between point a and point b yet" "god did it." "but just because we don't yet-" "god did it."

and then when we do know, it becomes "well we don't know what happens between point b and point c, so you never know! my anthropomorphic fantasy of creationism that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside might be proved by this massive explanatory gap! you scientists can't technically prove me wrong yet! hehehe"

also its just outright dishonest to say that your ignorance of science equates to what science actually knows. im sorry but they know a hell of a lot more than augustine did. a hell of a lot more data.

No one is trying to explain the Big Bang. It is unexplainable, as time/history/matter/energy were all created in what is referred to as a big bang. to study that moment itself, or anything before it, is to undertake theology, not science.

Its not MY ignorance of science, its science in general. Currently, quantum mechanics and conventional "Newtonian" physics can't be reconciled mathematically. Its almost like they're describe two different Universes, yet, we trying cosmologically to understand the one Universe we all live in. Also and again, I'm not a physicist, but even in high school physics its taught that when we rewind the cosmological clock all the way to the micro-seconds just AFTER the Big Bang, all our wonderful observations and mathematical formulas become incoherent. Also keep in mind that currently there isn't a single mathematical explanation to the concept of "dark matter/energy" to explain the observed balance we see in the material world of subatomic particles. Lastly, you'd be surprised how scientifically advanced the world of Saint Augustine was, in fact, they have technologies and capabilities which even todays most impressive technology STILL CAN'T DUPLICATE. It is a self-aggrandizing anachronism to assume the past was inherently more primitive to the present

The Big Bang is actually an attempt to explain why every single thing in the Universe is moving away from every other thing in the Universe. (there is indisputable evidence for this, but too many cannot bother with looking at evidence) If you go "backwards" in time, then eventually you reach a time/place where everything that exists was very very close to everything that exists. That initial expansion is what is referred to as "the big bang," which is NOT what scientists call it, but what laymen call it because they need everything simplified into grade school terminology.

science is not technology. technology is engineering.

science is the codified rules by which information is gathered about the universe in order to back up or refute theories.

Egyptians had amazing engineering. AMAZING, but their science was a crock of shit.

and the immaculate conception postulates a haploid christ

Watched this on Sat with wife as it was on cable.



made me think it was sourced from a novel and lots of stuff was left out.

yeah, because newtonian physics is wrong! and its widely recognized as being so. newton was a christian who was intending to explain gods laws btw.

it's widely recognized that the newtonian model was necessary to get us to where we are today but that obviously like all theories in science, it's subject to be disproved once better data comes along. scientists routinely say that newtonian thinking still resides in the culture at large but they are well beyond it. they've pointed out numerous times that this is the case and that the rest of us haven't caught up to them yet.

but you christians want to freeze us in this eternal post modern dark ages of "but we just can't know certain things!"

The Gnostics believe that "Christ" was God made manifest on Earth and he only pretended to suffer his Passions, as he could feel no pain, being a god and all.. he played it all out for our benefit.

bullshit. its science and scientists are doing it and have been doing it for a while now.

Newtonian physics isn't wrong, the evidence is tangible. The equations of Newtonian physics are those which were used and are still used by NASA for space exploration and configuring artifical satellites..


You're talking out of your ass, no actual scientist would ever claim that Newtonian physics is innaccurate or outdated..



Bullshit. When they try to "add it all up" nothing makes sense. At this stage in the game, the instant of the Big Bang and the theoretical singularity of matter which preceded it are mathematically speaking impossible, hence Rob's correct assertion that such is really bordering on speculative cosmology rather than substantive science.


Yes, but when we "rewind" the clock using math, the results begin to stop making mathematical sense. Currently, science can't explain how all the matter in the universe existed as a singularity because the equations don't add up. Could they in the future? Possibly. But wishful thinking isn't exactly hard facts of science. Also and again, the two prevailing cosmologies work indepentently, but don't mutually explain each other. So there is a gap. I'm not promoting God(s) as a cause or bridge of these gaps, that would be intellectually disingenuous of me. However, REAL science it to at the same time be perfectly honest about its current limitations. Read some Stephen Hawkings about the concept of "time" .. very interesting stuff. And yes, contrary to you prejudice against me dead_battery, I am more informed about science then you'd like to admit ;)

BTW, Newtonian physics was not wrong. It was 99.999999% correct and most of it still functions as intended. It was in the small details, the edges of the theory, where it fell apart. Most of it is till totally valid.

Nope. Go read about it man. They make guesses as to what could have been but that is not science. They admit that it is just fools guessing. actual science deals with verifiable experimental results. anyone trying to explain the initial state of the Universe, is doing metaphysics.

you two should go read scott bakker who is unfortunately a weepy narcissitic post christian moralist who whines about our precious "souls" too but actually has a complete theory of consciousness which is waiting for a definitive test to come along and prove or disprove it.

sorry that science does not tell you what you want to hear about your insignificant place in the universe and realities indifference to your vanity but you know, we got to start from where things really are not where we want them to be, yeah?

actually, no one has ever verified that all matter./energy was in a singularity. singularities may not even exist, not even in black holes. they are just a sign that our math is wrong, like infinities.

it only "doesn't make sense" because the math we are using is wrong. it will make sense eventually unless we go extinct before working it out. at least you admit this.

you probably are more informed about physics than me cos i dont know much.

also, the problem here is that if you are western/christian descended when you do metaphysics you are nearly 100% of the time crippled by your unconscious cultural biases. therefore you are actually looking for narrative, a beginning middle and end, and creationism.

in buddhism reality is a perfect mandala whose centre and edges are not definable. this is a better way of looking at the universe than trying to do the impossible, which is posit a void of pure nothingness and then try and come up with a reason why something appeared in that void. cos you can't.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dead_battery again.




Yes, that is exactly why the Orthodox Church explicitly rejects the Latin heresy of the Immaculate Conception of Mary because the result would be an imaginary Jesus with not real humanity. As Rob said, such is merely a rehash of Gnostism.



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rob Instigator again.

sure, but after 3 days, the dead really stink.

The atomic bomb is evidence of singularity as it effectively proved that E really does =MC^2 because the given mass of uranium was converted into the pure energy observed in the explosion. If the mass of a small sample of a radioactive element in the proper conditions can be converted into pure energy, it is very suggestive of the possibility of a previous singularity between all the matter and energy of the Universe. Of course, there are Multiverse theories in tandem with string theory which can shatter this need, but their math is even less reconcilable with observations from reality than is Newtonian/Quantum math..

Now the question is, not can singularity exist, but was there ever a time where there was universal singularity? The current math doesn't support this, but the current math only really works if inevitably there was a singularity. So science is searching for evidence or an mathematical explanation of this singularity, otherwise we probably have to change ALL our math, and much like a middle school Algebra student, most of us would rather just try to fix one or two errors on our homework rather than concede that maybe its all bullshit.

Oh yeah, and to get back on topic, I watched Low Down Dirty Shame yesterday and a bit of Celtic Pride. I was wondering, what the fuck were we all thinking in the mid-1990s to think the Wayans brothers/sister were mainstream box office superstars? How was Keenan or Damon ever honestly casted for even remotely legitimate roles??? Really? Was it a big, cosmic joke on the 1990s? Who was fucking with us, the Wayans or the studios? Both?

Indeed. The Wayans Bros make terrible flicks.

In Loving Color is priceless though..

i forgot to add:

then god the father is a rapist like zeus, and joseph a cuckold

it's in the bible

Nope. Actually the explicit theology of Mariology is that the Virgin Mary accepted God's will voluntarily. The theologians mention time and time again that Our Lady had the freedom and agency to reject God's offer, to reject the Incarnation, but what made her unique was she responded to the invitation, "Let it be according to the Lord, I am His maid-servant."

Yeah, but most people who read the bible(s) can hardly be bothered to read.

I think that one of the great truths of metaphysics, religion, philosophy, etc. is that our Universe is of a dual nature. This being so, the fact that one law governs the world of the large/massive (General Relativity) and one law governs the world of the tiny/light (QED - quantum electrodynamics) and that the two co-exist yet "seem" irreconcilable may just be the way everything is. It does not invalidate one or the other.

Good does not invalidate evil. It exists because of it, or in response to it, or in opposition to it etc.

right! the "lord". st. joseph cornudo y contento. and you complain that the math of physics doesn't "reconcile". religion needs to die already.

this didnt devolve into a dick fight and suchfriends even pmed me thanking me for being civil yet i distinctly remember writing an angry insulting post. but i must have got distracted by a video and clicked the x.

duality is wrong

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Genteel Death again.

religion needs to die because its about believing in things cos you want them to be true, which is the opposite of submitting to knowledge and the truth. we have to deal with reality and the truth whether we like it or not.

but what needs to happen is the ongoing cross cultural exchange between the east and west needs to continue, despite the myriad dominant reactionary forces that are trying to halt it.

the reason it needs to continue is that for a western person, only a traumatic encounter with buddhism or related approaches can violently unclog all the unconscious metaphysical biases that creep into our conception of the world and cripple our culture and science.

also buddhist metaphysics line up with what quantum physics neuroscience et all are discovering and therefore offer us a cultural framework with which to navigate them.

the truth is an indifferent reality that does not care about us. we are breeding for the sake of fufilling our embedded genetic replicators. it's a cycle of birth/death suffering that has no reason or purpose, will eventually go extinct and produces vast suffering and atrocity.

we have to deal with nihilism rather than denying it. science implies nihilism but of course nihilism itself is nihilistic, in that trying to "hold it" as a viewpoint is only a slightly lesser form of delusion.

exactly. suchfriends complains about how "mathematics doesn't reconcile" while denying the mental somersaults he must perform constantly in order to justify the belief that his fairytale actually happened on earth. the beam, the eye, i forget how that shit goes-- an admonition for people to look at their own bullshit first.

it is only the illusion of duality. Just like gravity is bent space time but gives the illusion that there are attractive forces at work.

its not really that important to me to attack suchfriends religion.

i think if you are truly scientific and not some new atheist douche whose just replicating christianity only with man as god, then you see religion as a memetic code used for social regulation. that's all fair enough really because i know that the world outside of religion is often just as hellish. religion can help some people in very limited ways and it's a way of people to form social bonds and get each others backs. its still based on delusions and lies, but i don't believe in belief so what people believe is not really as important as what they do.

but its still very problematic for the politics it pushes, the greed and abuse that it perpetuates, and the ignorance and handicapping of progress.

what i have to attack are the instances he says things that aren't true or the instances when he promotes ignorance and the post modern delusion that we just can't know certain things. cos this is really just building dams trying to hold of the semantic apocalypse

well ok. but i still reject dualism and idealism totally

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dead_battery again.

i don't care to attack his own peculiar brand of religion (there are worse ones to worry about), but when he starts his ignorant antiscientific tirades it's like my mind breaks out in hives and i start rolling eyes like an epileptic.

i'm not against questioning anything, especially science-- shit, science is based on questions and it sure knows what it doesn't know about-- but the guy preaches with such close-minded conviction it's pathological. socrates knew that he knew nothing, but suchfriends is convinced he knows everything. and he never makes mistakes!

he's won the magical belief lottery