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It contained a number of comments that I would assume are precisely the type of blatant sexism that Knox complained about and that Genetic Kiss is unaware of.
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most women don't murder with weapons either, they don't like it messy. so what? many males shoot themselves. so what, are you saying it's ok if i had died? it sounds that's what you're saying rob. it sounds like you're saying you wouldn't care if all the people who are rescued and saved and are now alive after they attempts with pills, jumping, slliting wrists or whatever could not saved in time because they shot themselves in the head. i don't get it, yeah people commit suicide it's not their CHOICE. Only someone who has never been through it think it's their CHOICE, they're not able to see things clearly and make clear choices, NO it isn't they need HELP because they're sick and they need to be PROTECTED - even if from themselves. if they were in a position to make choices, they would choose not to be depressed or mentally ill. it's everyone's duty not to facilitate suicides and murders and protect human life in general. in fact if i were to be suicidal right now this fucking disregard you're showing would convince me EVEN more that it's not worth living. this kind of disregard for human life is disturbing |
as well as you ignored all the other points from my post:
being shot form a distance, from the back, no chance to defend yourself. |
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It's not often that anyone wants to go out and kill someone period...gotta go to work, but I'll respond more later. |
It's not often. Well, then how do you explain the murder rates?
Unless that's your definition of not often, but I consider those rates unacceptable. |
that chip on yr shoulder is not allowing you to process info critically knox.
not all suicides do so because of mental illness or depression. suicide/euthinasia is, as far as I am concerned, a HUMAN RIGHT. |
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hhhahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahah. suicide and euthanasia are far from the same thing. most suicides happen among healthy people, and they're almost all related to mental illness and depression. you say some unbelievable things sometimes, where does that come from? so you're basically saying you'd be absolutely ok if I had died or all those people who managed to be saved were dead by now. it'd be our human right to succumb to depression or a moment of desperation/psychosis? those people don't want to kill themselves, they wanna be HELPED so they can FEEL BETTER. The fact that they can't get proper help and they can't make themselves feel better most of the time, leads them to desperate measures. But they don't die because they wanna die, they do because they can't stand the pain of what they're going through. clearly, you have never experienced this or a psychotic episode to know what's like to be out of control and unable to make CHOICES. And our society is not very good to them either. what you're saying is very selfish, inhumane and disturbing. only someone who hasn't suffered with severe depression or never had any loved one suffering from it , and hasn't got a clue about mental illness and depression could say something as horrid and clueless. |
you are talking about "what ifs"
I am glad you are here with us Knox. I would not want you to not be here. However, if you had left, we would not have gotten to know you. we would not have known that you had existed. It is impossible to guess as to how one would have reacted. I have lived with TWO women, married to one for ten years, that suffered from near crippling depression. I ahve helped them get better as much as I could. and know as close as can be without experienceing it myself, what one goes through. I do not beleive anything is "sacred" I do not believe in a soul , nor any deity, nor any supernatural forces/beings. If they exist they are wholly natural. because of this I value each and every single life as a true miracle, as a superbly orignal and valuable part of the universe as a whole. Howveer, my valuing of YOUR life in no way grants me the power/right/authority to dictate to YOU that you must continue living. There are indeed MANY things worse than death in this world. and thiose are for each of us to determine in kind. please do not misread my comments as some sort of attack on you or on people who suffer from depresion or any such thing. It is just a discussion about ideas. |
This has nothing to do with what ifs.
I was ill, if I had succeeded in getting hold of a gun I would be dead. Not if, fact. Same thing with some people who are are also helpless in their instinct/desire/urge to kill, when they get hold of a gun, they do kill. Most people aren't fit to have such destructive power. Otherwise the US would be saying: it's ok for other countries to have weapons of mass destruction, it's just their RIGHT to defend themselves. But that's not what they say, is it? Because the mere existence of such threats is a threat. Do you see the contradiction there? |
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So, people's lives only matter to you when they somehow affect you? It's about YOU then. If you don't know they exist, who cares if they're fucking dying right? What you are saying very clearly is that you wouldn't have cared if I had died because you wouldn't know me. What I am saying, very clearly, is that I honestly wish all the people I don't know and are suffering and unable to think clearly are protected from themselves so they don't have to commit the destructive horrible that that is suicide. |
Rob, you don't understand mental illness and depression. Suicide is NOT a choice, and it's completely different from euthanasia.
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Let us compare shall we? Quote:
THE ENTIRE COUNTRY!!! This is Los Angeles County for the same year, 148 (840 total !!!) homicides under 19 years old if you compare the LA TIMES homicide project data, map and statistics with the BBC News similar project with teen killings in the UK the discrepancy speaks volumes... THAT IS JUST ONE CITY IN THE US! ONE CITY HAS nearly 2-1 homicide rate as the ENTIRE UNITED KINGDOM! how many people live there, what 60-80 million people? How many in Los Angeles area, 10-11 million? Fuck that noise yr spitting, the murder rates in US are much much higher by any ratio or counting.. I pray to God day and night that only 70 kids get killed this year in this town. There were 10 teenage homicides in London thus far, LA this year has had nearly a hundred :( |
Anyway, the point of this thread is not to discuss anything related to suicide.
My original point was guns are destructive no matter what you think, they always represent more risk than safety. |
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it is a TOUGH subject indeed knox. and it touches on other very heavy tough subjects. The US government actually DOES say that it is Israel's right to have WMD's (hundreds of thermonuclear weapons provided by the USA) then they say it is NOT Iran's right to have them. The US GOVENRMENT is straight hypocritical all the time it seems. Just like what I mentioned earlier about federal minimum sentences for crack cocaine, where 5 grams use dto get you 30 years MINIMUM, whereas 5 grams of powdered cocaine (loved by rich powerful white folks the world over) got you 5-10 years, if that. the double standards are evident. and for every depressed individual that does not use a gun to end it, because guns are not available, there will be another human being who died becauise he/she did not have a gun to defend themselves. that is the complexity of real life. |
and even though guns may represent more risk that safety, they still represent safety.
safety belts in cars (an ostensibly good thing right?) represent more safety than risk but there are also people killed becase they choke on the restraining belts after a crash, or because they could not escape the flaming wreck because of their seatbelts. my whole point being that the good must be taken with the bad and vice versa, and that wholesale banning of something like guns, weed, alcohol, sex, etc is extreme overreaction which ussually (if we let history teach us) leads to all new horrors that were not expected by those people wishing to "do good" by banning things. |
America is PROOF that letting citizens own guns is STUPID. Just look at the stats when compared to ALL the other industrialized nations. It is pure idiocy.
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No one "Lets" american citizens own guns.
It is a RIGHT of our Constitution. Placing too much power in the hands of a few (any few) who are to then determine what is best for all is fucking IDIOCY. you ever read animal farm? and yes, it goes both ways. |
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nonsense, the gun manufacturers let us all have guns, and the results are unanimous worldwide.  |
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I really don't think the ratio is 50/50 there, like you seem to be implying. Unless you mean people dying in wars, but a gun in the house wouldn't help them much. When it comes to guns: suicide, murder and accidents happen WAY more often than citizens defending themselves. To have the slighest chance, someone would have to be trained and active to begin with, so the idea that having a gun somewhere in your house is protecting you is an illusion. Like I said, most people are shot when they are not expecting, they don't have time to act even if they did have a gun. As for the seatbelts, once again, numbers. Although they might cause deaths eventually, your chances of being saved by them are much higher. That's not the same for guns, if you could track down every gun ever bought by a citizen you will see that they will cause harm MORE OFTEN than good. This is about statistics, you need to consider that to make a rational point. Suchfriends had the best input, when he actually gave us numbers there but unfortunately, he was ignored. The point he was making wasn't about OPINIONS, it was about FACTS. |
How about this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOlM1pPMNBc |
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Compare these rates to the worlds population..... |
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That is absolutely irrational. I was always terrible at math, but you guys are making me look good at it. |
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Irrational is thinking taking guns away is going to somehow make us humans less violent. Where are the statistics stating the amount of times guns have saved lives? And if you were ever truely that ill, you would have done it without a gun. I never buy into that stuff...I mean, It's not hard (not, not, not that I support one doing this, I don't) |
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Like I said, I think less people should be allowed to drive. But you'd need efficient public transportation first. I don't drive and never will drive, like I said, by choice. btw, is it even legal to drive being on the phone? and also, people have been repeating: the purpose of a car is not to cause damage, but that's the purpose of a gun. people need to get and renew licenses to drive cars, because of the responsibility involved. driving is not a right, it's a permission granted by authorities. |
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I can't make humans less violent - that's exactly the point. There are statistics about that yes, if you look and you'll find that the times guns have saved lives are really rare if compared to the times they cause accidents and deaths. Like I've been saying a MILLION times. And yes it is hard, all other suicide methods are more painful and more likely to fail. But no one here is looking at numbers, we have all the stats posted by suchfriends take a look at that and you will find that taking guns away from people does make them kill less. |
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All other? Hell nah, man....there are ways that actually feel good. I won't specify here, but I'm sure you know what I'm getting at. |
everything I have ever read and studied about suicide shows that many "suicides" choose methods that are likely to fail on purpose, because they want to be rescued.
Also, many more men than women use methods that are very unlikely to fail, like a bullet to the head, or jumping off high bridges/buildings. donl;t know if this is because men are more inherently aggresive in all things. Japan has one of the highest suicide rates of any industrialized nation and their citizens are not allowed to own firearms either. In 2009, over 30,000 people killed themselves in japan. 12th straight year of that many at least "Common methods of suicide are jumping in front of trains, leaping off high places, hanging, or overdosing on medication" the correlation with guns is very tentative. The WHO (world heath organization) has numbers on this stuff. http://www.who.int/mental_health/pre...iciderates/en/ shit is real bad in Lithuania, Belarus, Latvia, Slovenia... |
Oh Rob...as far as suicide is concerned, I've read many a time over that women are more likely to attempt it (and fail...), while men (whenever we attempt...) are far more likely to succeed. This has always been interesting to me. Off the subject, I know.
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If I'm violent and I've got a gun I'm far more dangerous to people than with just my fists. I punch like a girl, so I'd probably get taken down very, very quickly. With a gun I might just put a hole in someone, in spite of my inferior strength. The average psychopath over here generally gets sectioned quite quickly. He might be lucky and get a bit stabby, but someone with a knife is a lot easier to take down than someone with a gun. I should note that I've known plenty of people who have legally-acquired guns over here. They're not easy to get hold of, but they are very heavily restricted. I think Dunblane was done by a legal gun-owner. I wonder if the problem isn't the mass proliferation and the ease of ownership. Banning guns isn't something that would happen instantly; following an amnesty, there's bound to be a period of black-market guns and firearms sequestered away. Some rusting, some still in use. But it's a bit defeatist to say that after, say, 10-15 years the effect of widespread firearm ownership wouldn't be very heavily reduced. And the thing with 'rights' is that the right to socialised medicine is something that's far, far more important to humanity in one of the richest economies in the world than the right to own something to put cunting great holes in things is. |
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
* In the United States during 1997, there were approximately 7,927,000 violent crimes. Of these, 691,000 were committed with firearms. (12) * Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. (16b) * In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim." (16c) * Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1) * As of 1998, about 13% of homicides involve knives, 5% involve bludgeons, and 6% are committed with hands and feet. (12) Calculations performed with data from: a) "1997 Uniform Crime Reports." Federal Bureau of Investigation. Table 2.11. b) "National Crime Victimization Survey - Criminal Victimization in the United States, 1997 Statistical Tables." United States Department of Justice. Table 66. (16b) Study: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun." By Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology (Northwestern University School of Law), 1995. Accessed at http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm. b) The study states: "Eleven of the surveys permitted the computation of a reasonable adjusted estimate of [Defensive Gun Use] frequency. Two surveys for which estimates could not be produced were the Cambridge Reports and the Time/ CNN. Neither asked the [Defensive Gun Use] question of all [respondents]; thus, it would be sheer speculation what the responses would have been among those [respondents] not asked the [Defensive Gun Use] question. All of the eleven surveys yielded results that implied over 700,000 uses per year." [Table 1 lists these studies and various facts about their methodologies. Eight of the 11 studies mentioned above were nationwide surveys. Among these, the range of defensive gun uses per year is 764,000 - 3,609,000. The 9th nationwide survey is the one this study is based upon. It was conducted with the most precise criteria off all such studies, and estimates that Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals between 1,900,000 and 2,500,000 times per year.] (16c) The study states: "Nevertheless, in a ten state sample of incarcerated felons interviewed in 1982, 34% reported having been 'scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim.'" |
Like it was stated before by several people. The act of defending onesself witha firearm , preventing a crime, does not get reported in the news. the news exists solely to sell advertising, therefor ethey only focus on scare stories which ensure that people will be sucked into watching their news broadcasts.
a man shooting another man is headline news. a man using a gun to keep another man from entering his home/business does not. It is not sexy. It does not strike fear into people causing them to spend all their money at the mall because "we could die tomorrow! hom invasion! murders! Must spend all my money! there is no future!" |
Banning guns, it sounds nice.
But it has to apply to everyone, even cops. |
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It's a bit more difficult with a knife. It's much harder to kill someone with a knife, actually. They can defend themselves better too, it's more risky for the murderer. Generally, a person who is stabbed has a lot more chance to survive. It's much easier to get caught if you stab someone as well, a lot harder to get away. We must not forget killers are cowards in general, the easier the more likely they are to do it. Please look at those UK statistics... does that mean british people are less murderous than americans by nature? I don't think so. Even the law admits that people kill in the heat of a moment, without premeditiation or even the intention to kill. Guns just make it easier for those things to happen. Out of fear, desperation, rage. To say that most people are capable of being balanced enough to carry a gun is to ignore human nature. So, no I'm not saying you can make people less violent, I'm saying you need to stop making it easy for violent people. I know what guns can do, I know how much power they have. Just look at the drug situation in Rio, Colombia or Mexico, these people can only victimize and take control because they can get hold of guns, which sadly come mostly from the US. If you don't get gun control, these people are gonna carry on dying. If you talk about places like that and say you'll give citizens the right to buy guns you'll be looking at CIVIL WAR. And that's the reality you can't see up there in the US, how much your gun industry is ruining the lives of many people in other countries. Don't tell me they would do that anyway because they are criminals: you can't imagine drug dealers taking control of communities, cities or even countries without their SUPER POWERFUL MODERN GUNS that someone is profitting over. The police goes there with their guns too and starts shooting people, they shoot back and it's an endless cycle of death. You cannot stop that without reviewing the gun industry and gun control in the US. A lot of these guns used in Mexico were purchased legally in the US at one point. You can't find realiable stats on the net easily: every single website is being blatantly sponsored by the industry. It's big business, and they don't care it's usually the poor dying anyway. So I guess I'll give up because most of you are not interested in the other side of the story. |
I guess that's what people love about guns anyway: the feeling of power.
That power is a disaster in the wrong hands. So, americans, is everyone fit to have a gun? Enlighten me about the screening process in force. Do they have to go through tests and education like they do before they are allowed to drive? |
Or the love of feeling safe...same difference, really.
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to get a concealed handgun permit in texas one must
- fill out an application request at a DPS (department of public safety) office. same place we get our driver's licenses. - If the DPS determines you are qualified (meaning no criminal felony record, no stay at mental institutions, no name on a terror list, etc.) they send you the FULL application in the mail The concealed handgun law sets out a number of qualifications that must be met. Your application packet will list them in detail. For example, you must be a legal resident of Texas and you must be qualified to purchase a handgun under all state and federal laws. A number of factors may disqualify you from obtaining a license, such as: felony convictions and some misdemeanor convictions, including charges that resulted in probation or deferred adjudication, pending criminal charges chemical or alcohol dependency, certain types of psychological diagnoses, protective or restraining orders, defaults on taxes, governmental fees, student loans or child support. The application packet also will include information about materials you need to return with your application packet. These include: two recent color passport photos, two sets of fingerprints taken by a law enforcement agency employee, a copy of your Texas driver license or identification card, and a notification of completion form (TR 100) from a DPS-authorized handgun course. After receiving completed application packets, the DPS will conduct extensive background checks of juvenile records for the previous 10 years and all adult records. The training class is a 10-15 hour long certification. Handguns and other weapons can not be carried at schools or on school buses, at polling places, in courts and court offices, at racetracks and at secured airport areas. The law also specifically prohibits handguns from businesses where alcohol is sold if more than half of their revenue is from the sale of alcohol for on-premises consumption, and from locations where high school, college or professional sporting events are taking place. You may not carry handguns in hospitals or nursing homes, amusement parks, places of worship or at government meetings if signs are posted prohibiting them. Businesses also may post signs prohibiting handguns on their premises based on criminal trespass laws. If you are caught intoxicated carrying a concealed weapon it is BAD NEWS what is NOT regulated is the black market, and it never will be. criminals, or anyone with surreptitious motives fro obtaining a gun will forever and ever be able to get them, and all they have to ddo is pony up the dough. this is true in UK as well as in USA, or anywhere |
to purchase a regular ol gun, rifle, shotgun at a sporting goods store for example, they do an FBI background check.
and there is a 5 day waiting period for many. If your record is clean then easy peasy. |
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maybe the cell phone is the real culprit. i'm convinced cell phones have amplified the cycle of stupidity to an exponential level. life isn't always pretty. not everyone makes it. why do I have to be responsible for everyone else. leave me out of it. the only gun I ever owned - I was 14 I think - was a cool Daisy pump air rifle (bb gun), one day I was fucking around and shot the sliding glass door out. that was the end of that. you'll all be happy to know I don't own one now. but I believe strongly I should be able to buy one at prices not artificially inflated by the State (e.g., cigs) if I want. |
there are the gun shows as well!!!!
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Maybe they shouldn't have gun shows then? Maybe guns shouldn't be sold at retail, but rather ordered directly from the manufacturer through some kind of special mail order service?
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