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-   -   Do you believe in ghosts? (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthread.php?t=41704)

hevusa 10.15.2010 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
It's just what I predicted, isn't it? Even if you face the facts you'll find a way to tell yourself they're not there and ridicule everything that you cannot explain. But it's ok, it's a natural reaction. That's what I meant it sometimes requires the same blind willpower that religious fanatics have. Possibilities are possibilities, scientific thinking implies you'd have to consider them. If you can't prove or disproof something, then it just can't be considered a fact, you don't know.

There are lots and lots of things science cannot explain YET. There are other things it might be wrong about, like it has been in the past. There are certain schools of science that could even begin to formulate some theories to explain certain things - quantum psychics perhaps.

Another widely accepted theory that could relate to the subject is Jung's:

My thesis then, is as follows: in addition to our immediate consciousness, which is of a thoroughly personal nature and which we believe to be the only empirical psyche (even if we tack on the personal unconscious as an appendix), there exists a second psychic system of a collective, universal, and impersonal nature which is identical in all individuals. This collective unconscious does not develop individually but is inherited. It consists of pre-existent forms, the archetypes, which can only become conscious secondarily and which give definite form to certain psychic contents.

But of course, that one be one interpretation of it.

Once again:
Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable

You gotta remember the UNKNOWN or UNKNOWABLE part. There is no certainty implied.

Agnostic atheismAgnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.



Ghosts are still on the same level of reality of the invisible pink elephant living in my fridge unless you present some objective evidence (which no one in human history has ever done).

You really are grasping at straws now.

knox 10.15.2010 12:20 PM

How long did it take since the first theories about the atom were documented until it was actually proven?

In the 5th cent. B.C. the Greek philosophers Democritus and Leucippus proposed that matter was made up of tiny, indivisible particles they called atom, or in Greek "a-tomos".
By the 19th century, technology had advanced greatly and many elements had been discovered to work with. Using the available elements scientist such as John Dalton and Amedeo Avogadro forced them to interact with one another. From these interactions they were able to prove the existence of the atom.

Too bad we'll all be dead. Hope someone tells your ghost when it happens.

hevusa 10.15.2010 12:30 PM

comparing ghosts to atoms now???
hahahahahhahahahahahahahah
this is getting better and better.

floatingslowly 10.15.2010 12:34 PM

why not? everything (above the plank level) contains them, professor.

why can't you argue in a civil manner?

the lad(ee) doth protesteth too much.

hevusa 10.15.2010 12:44 PM

Obviously more than one a day is needed:

The Cyclops. Also "not real".

GeneticKiss 10.15.2010 12:45 PM

See, this is what I said before. Not only are you saying that you don't believe in ghosts, but also anyone does is lying not only to themselves but to everyone and therefore are detrimental (sp?) to society, so they should change their ways. You're PREACHING, which you claim to say you're against.

You're open-minded about pot being legalized, so why can't you be open to the idea that there are things that exist in this world that defy simple explanation? Or at the very least quit calling people stupid liars for believeing in things that can't yet be proven?

hevusa 10.15.2010 12:50 PM

 


^
here is undebatable proof

tesla69 10.15.2010 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
that you behave like a vulture always looking for or creating an opportunity to attack me in any way and you seem so very excited about it every time? And then you send me private messages saying it's not serious, it's just a discussion and you don't mean to insult me and you respect me or whatever?


ha, now you know what its like when I post material about deep politics - but no one writes to me privately to say its not serious! Waah!

We understand our existence within 3 dimensions, but our preception is challenged beyond that - isn't also reasonable we exist in part in the 4th dimension and I can't even predict how that looks - I can't perceive the 4th dimension (well, I might've unlocked the keys once or twice).

I don't see why it so far fetched for consciousness to exist without form. I tend to believe consciousness came before the body anyway. Not that I have proof, but then, there is no proof the body came first either.

tesla69 10.15.2010 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels
the other thing i find interesting about ghosts is that even though people no longer claim to see sea monsters, or dragons, or werewolves, or dog heads, etc. there hasn't been a comparable decline in ghost sightings


actual the cryptozoological websites seem busier than ever ... recently posted an old old photo of some civil war soldiers with a pterodactyl they shot. And there's that vampire thing in Mexico and south America that seems very active.

hevusa 10.15.2010 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneticKiss
See, this is what I said before. Not only are you saying that you don't believe in ghosts, but also anyone does is lying not only to themselves but to everyone and therefore are detrimental (sp?) to society, so they should change their ways. You're PREACHING, which you claim to say you're against.

You're open-minded about pot being legalized, so why can't you be open to the idea that there are things that exist in this world that defy simple explanation? Or at the very least quit calling people stupid liars for believeing in things that can't yet be proven?



This is not about being open minded. This is about understanding the world around you. Is there a God? I don't know, but if you claim to have objective evidence about Gods existence you better damn well present it or shut the fuck up. This is what knox has done with ghosts yet she has failed to present any such evidence. In my eyes she is a fucking retard until she admits she was wrong or presents such evidence.

The moment I ever find such evidence I will be the first to admit that ghosts are real and indeed exist. Until then:

For Knox:
The Elf, The Devil, The Mermaid = NOT REAL

knox 10.15.2010 01:00 PM

I wasn't even comparing anything, just saying there has always been idiots with no imagination to claim everything was bullshit, and other people who persist for hundreds of years to prove a theory. Not because they wanted to prove anything to idiots, but just because they are more interested in what they don't know than they are in what they do imagine they know.

But things always change - and there are always new things to discover.
If you imagine only what you can see and touch is a possibility - than your life must be really limited.

In a past life, hevusa sat there going like: "hahhahahahah atom? next thing you'll say it's possible to take a dead man's heart and make it work for a living one hahahhahha"

We don't know shit about shit. But we'll learn more, you'll probably be able to learn more than 10 sentences too.

with great fear. In other words, I think that there are many things in the universe that we cannot perceive or penetrate, and that also we experience some of the most beautiful things in life only in a very primitive form.
- Albert Einstein, Interview with Peter A. Bucky, quoted in:
The Private Albert Einstein

Whenever this feeling is absent, science degenerates into uninspired empiricism.


- Albert Einstein, Letter to Maurice Solovine, January 1, 1951; quoted in Letters to Solovine (1993)

Uninspired empiricism describes your overall attitude hevusa.

hevusa 10.15.2010 01:01 PM

Since Knox is quoting Einstein now

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Einstein

knox 10.15.2010 01:02 PM

also

I nevet claimed to have objective evidence of anything, so don't be a liar, it's shitty.

knox 10.15.2010 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa
Since Knox is quoting Einstein now

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Einstein


He was always right about everything, wasn't he?

knox 10.15.2010 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneticKiss
See, this is what I said before. Not only are you saying that you don't believe in ghosts, but also anyone does is lying not only to themselves but to everyone and therefore are detrimental (sp?) to society, so they should change their ways. You're PREACHING, which you claim to say you're against.

You're open-minded about pot being legalized, so why can't you be open to the idea that there are things that exist in this world that defy simple explanation? Or at the very least quit calling people stupid liars for believeing in things that can't yet be proven?


Yeah, I think you're right. Or at least, not claim to be agnostic since this attitude clearly isn't agnostic.

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
Yes, PICTURES of things that have no matter. Yeah I'll upload my collection on youtube. You realise that sounds even MORE insane than claiming to see ghosts? It's like asking people with synesthesia to make youtubes of the colors they see with sounds.

Have you noticed, Ann Ashtray, that you behave like a vulture always looking for or creating an opportunity to attack me in any way and you seem so very excited about it every time? And then you send me private messages saying it's not serious, it's just a discussion and you don't mean to insult me and you respect me or whatever? And that makes you seem pretty creepy?

I'm very sorry to disappoint you but it's a thread about ghosts, not about Knox. I know that doesn't interest you as much, but you must respect it.


So, our eyes can see things that don't consist of matter? Please do explain, Knox. That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever, ever, ever heard.

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneticKiss
Is this to say you haven't thought of the idea that not every ghost sighting has been reported? Some people may see a ghost but not tell anyone for fear of being dismissed or ridiculed. And even then, there may be insistances in which someone has seen a ghost and tells others but it never reaches an "official" documenter. Statistics don't always tell the whole story.


Well, unreported claims aren't much worth considering.

hevusa 10.15.2010 01:35 PM

For Knox:

Also Not Real-
Werewolfs
Zombies
The Sandman
Witches
Goblins

I'm only agnostic in regards to the concept of an omnipresent God. Not fucking ghosts or smurfs.

Shit....
For Knox: Also not real-
Smurfs

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa
For Knox:

Also Not Real-
Werewolfs
Zombies
The Sandman
Witches
Goblins

I'm only agnostic in regards to the concept of an omnipresent God. Not fucking ghosts or smurfs.

Shit....


For Knox: Also not real-
Smurfs


YOU JUST FAIL TO CONSIDER THE EVIDENCE!

:)

hevusa 10.15.2010 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ann ashtray
YOU JUST FAIL TO CONSIDER THE EVIDENCE!

:)



Yes, the evidence for zombie werewolfs is overwhelming!

knox 10.15.2010 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa
For Knox:

Also Not Real-
Werewolfs
Zombies
The Sandman
Witches
Goblins

I'm only agnostic in regards to the concept of an omnipresent God. Not fucking ghosts or smurfs.

Shit....


For Knox: Also not real-
Smurfs


I suppose you can't tell so I'll have to tell you. When people are posting about facts, science, theories, history, concepts, they are mentioning quantum psychics, jung and einstein and THIS is the best you can come up with to discuss, it makes them think that perhaps you aren't as bright as you're trying to come across and you can't respond to any of the things that have been presented to you appropriately.

Regardless of how irrational you might think they are being, it's certainly more credible than sounding like a broken record that came out of some adam sandler film.

Also, it seems out of the ordinary that ann ashtray would ignore a post about his own creepiness, is that a new pattern emerging?

knox 10.15.2010 01:56 PM

Oh, also, it might give people the impression that you were never interested in discussing a subject to begin with, but merely trying to find an opportunity to insult other people so you can feel better about yourself.

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 01:57 PM

I'm a total creep, yes. Everyone here knows that already. haha

But ghosts are far creepier. Esp. those that try and argue their existence.

knox 10.15.2010 01:58 PM

But you like to brag about it, hence the surprise.

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
But you like to brag about it, hence the surprise.


I don't care. That should be the suprise, except not really.

It's the internet. I only know two people on this forum (well, three....but one is dead) personally, and I get/got along with all three of them very well. I don't have to defend myself against some girl that likely grew up w/ her parents calling her "princess" every time she'd throw a fit in the super market.

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 02:02 PM

+ you sure make a lot of false assumptions for someone w/ psychic abilities.

knox 10.15.2010 02:09 PM

I'm not making assumptions or asking to hear the story of your life. I'm just saying that you're always more interested in me than you are in any subject being discussed and you never have anything relevant to say other than trying to get personal and that is pretty sad.

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 02:13 PM

Until recently I've not said a god damned thing to ya that was off subject. You're attempting to twist this shit around like ya usually do when ya make claims you can't back up.

Nice try, but again shit ain't workin'.

hevusa 10.15.2010 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
ghosts are real in one way or another


Knox has yet to produce even "one" way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
Like I said, I have plenty of evidence.


To prove the existence of ghosts? You would be the first person on earth, and quite frankly, you don't seem that impressive dear.

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa
Knox has yet to produce even "one" way.


I know, I was getting excited that she might finally shed some light on this subject too.

Maybe we are just blind to matterless beings.

knox 10.15.2010 02:24 PM

i'm not going to discuss "reality".

hevusa and creep: carry on bonding. <3

knox 10.15.2010 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ann ashtray
I know, I was getting excited that she might finally shed some light on this subject too.

Maybe we are just blind to matterless beings.


You clearly are. I wouldn't call it beings.

hevusa 10.15.2010 02:28 PM

hahahahaha
you are actually carrying on with this delusion?

"I wouldn't call it beings" like you know what the fuck they are. Fucking ridiculous!!!

hahahahaha
so much fun. so many people in your life must think you are an idiot.

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
You clearly are. I wouldn't call it beings.

Yeah, because the human is so capable of seeing shit that isn't there. There's tons of evidence to back up this claim, and apparently you have to proof that you refuse to share with us.

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa
hahahahaha
you are actually carrying on with this delusion?

"I wouldn't call it beings" like you know what the fuck they are. Fucking ridiculous!!!

hahahahaha
so much fun. so many people in your life must think you are an idiot.


By her own account she's dealt with mental issues in the past, so please....take that into consideration Hevusa.

It could have been her meds, or maybe meds were the result of the shit she claims to have seen.....the world will never know.

hevusa 10.15.2010 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ann ashtray
By her own account she's dealt with mental issues in the past, so please....take that into consideration Hevusa.

It could have been her meds, or maybe meds were the result of the shit she claims to have seen.....the world will never know.


ouch. I had no idea. that sort of changes the "fun".

themawt71 10.15.2010 02:36 PM

hevusa says-

"Who am I? I'm just an honest person that says "I don't know" when something cannot be known instead of making up stupid shit.[/quote]



aren't you saying "no (you fucking stupid idiot etc...)" rather than "i don't know"

refer back to floating slowly's "cunt" post...


and yeah DDD this thread is really hilarious!

knox 10.15.2010 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa
Knox has yet to produce even "one" way.



To prove the existence of ghosts? You would be the first person on earth, and quite frankly, you don't seem that impressive dear.


Let me make myself clear: I never meant I had plenty of evidence to prove anything to anyone. I said I had plenty of evidence MYSELF. And none of that concerns you. I was very clear about not being willing to share any of that from the start.

So I am crazy? It's a possibility, but there is no concrete evidence of that either. And it's still more rewarding than being one dimensional, repetitive, defensive, unimaginative being that'll opt for uncalled for aggression as an outlet for insecurity.

I don't need to cling to what I know - there is more freedom in not knowning. Feel free to come back and discuss when you are actually interested in the discussion itself and able to respond to the many aspects people have been pointed out with a little bit more insight.

hevusa 10.15.2010 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by themawt71
aren't you saying "no (you fucking stupid idiot etc...)" rather than "i don't know"


I'm just asking for the evidence that someone thought they had about the existence of ghosts. Do I know that ghosts and god don't exist? No. But I also don't know that the tiny pink invisible elephant living in my refrigerator doesn't exist.

Do I know Ghosts and God aren't real? Yes, until one iota of objective information is presented about them they remain an unknowable concept/theory. Not a part of reality in any manner. On the same level of reality as Alice in Wonderland. These fucking morons on here actually think that ghosts, god and souls are real. That is fucking ridiculous man!

God damn! 2010 and this is where we are at??

ann ashtray 10.15.2010 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa
I'm just asking for the evidence that someone thought they had about the existence of ghosts. Do I know that ghosts and god don't exist? No. But I also don't know that the tiny pink invisible elephant living in my refrigerator doesn't exist.

Do I know Ghosts and God aren't real? Yes, until one iota of objective information is presented about them they remain an unknowable concept/theory. Not a part of reality in any manner. On the same level of reality as Alice in Wonderland. These fucking morons on here actually think that ghosts, god and souls are real. That is fucking ridiculous man!


Let's not forget, she also claimed it's been proven in court.

I'm still waiting for a link to info on this case.


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