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Should also be noted that while Peter Tosh was a better guitar player and taught Bob to play music Bob's later solo material from a theory perspective is the most complex of all reggae. Bob took the simplicity of reggae and gave it the subtle complexity of jazz
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MUSIC is mathematical, quantifiable, yes. Music theory, no. It becomes an inherently non-objective, non-empirical method of research when things like testimonial evidence are used to support theses. Empiricism involves objective observation. Interviews and sound bytes and opinions from writers and musicians are not part of the equation. Yeah, music is hella mathematical, and thereby scientifically applicable. Sure. But opinions are inherently subjective. Quote:
Yeah, right. Ok. Still talking about notes, math, data points. None of this is true of testimony. That's why the burden of "proof" is really just a burden of being convincing in law. You still have to default to the decision of a jury, who may not have listened to a damn word of the trial either way. It's not science, it's humanities and rhetoric. Quote:
Then musicologists would be linguists. Which they are to some degree, and I suppose the effect of sound on neural activity could be used to turn this into a question of science. Linguistics is a field that utilizes cognitive neuroscience (wut!) to legitimize itself scientifically. But linguistic theory is HELLA complex, and way beyond what any of us are talking about here. If music theorists wanted to adopt the research methods of psycholinguists, then we'd have some shit to talk about. Quote:
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You don't have to explain the model to me man, I'm a neuropsych grad school dropout!!! Quote:
I still think you have yourself a working thesis at best. Find a way to test and measure it blindly, and replicate the results with diverse populations, and we'll be on the same page. This is SHIT man you just HATE THE BEATLES! Admit it!! :) Talking to you is fun. |
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Also i think you stumbled onto something good with the linguists. They indeed have a very complex field but their task is to trace the evolution of language over time and the relationships between languages. Perhaps their methodologies can help us do the same kinds of classifications for different musics? I don't need to research the origin of reggae Bob Marley, Alton Ellis, Johnny Clark, all these brothers all already said they were influenced by early Rock and Roll bands and the chord progressions are identical. |
I'm just saying man, an artist citing an influence is still not a reliable data point. Self-report measures have a thousand flaws. The self-report bias is a thing!
Think about it, if I'm a guitar player in an indie band and I'm asked to list my influences, chances are I'm going to say a bunch of names that I think will make me sound cool. Ima be like, "yo, I'm all about Big Black, Shellac, Sonic Yourh, and this dude Glen Branca" even if my music sounds like Matchbox 20 compared to those artists. Even if I'm in the band Real Estate or some shit, I'm gonna say my influenced are super dope. I'm gonna name drop. (Not me as in Severian, but me as in the character I was playing for those two sentences.) So I'm on board with connecting the dots statistically. Find a unique chord change in 1964, see it again in 1978 and 84 and 93... I get that that's a fairly valid way to observe and measure the impact of instance #1. *fairly* ... But I don't think the self-testimonies can be taken at face value because there are a millions reasons why people say the things they say when they're asked questions. I get what you're saying and I respect the amount of thought you've put into this. I hope you get where I'm coming from and don't think I'm just hating on you. Basically I think you're about 50-60% on point, but there has to be a more reliable measure than self report/testimony to flesh out the model if it's going to fall into the category of quantitative statistically sound research. But I'm a science guy. That's my bias. As much as I love the arts and -- fuck, I WORK in the fucking arts now-- my education and training was predominantly in the experimental sciences. I have to remind myself sometimes that quantitative research has a ton of value and plays a huge role in the flow and development of theory and knowledge. |
So... Did you guys hear Kanye apparently still hasn't settled on a title?
I haven't seen any cover art. I think the press and the pressure are both getting to him a bit. Poor guy. Just let him be! Let him be so he can release his Let it Be!!! Or whatever!!! I had so man doubts about Yeezus and that album still sounds like the goddamn future of music. I've learned to just trust in Kanye. Wish everyone else would do the same. All this talk about him dropping a brick for the first time ever, man, it's probably freaking him out a bit. Haters trying to turn a self-fulfilling prophecy on our boy. T-5 days. |
Oh yeah... Flume!
Anyone else stoked for the new Flume album? Have you guys HEARD "Smoke and Retribution" featuring Vince S.? Man, I haven't used this term in a while, but it's fucking FIRE. (Nothing Yeezy hasn't done before, but still) Check it out Flume - Smoke and Retribution ft. Vince Staples & Kučka |
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Who's K.dot? Kendrick? |
How is an artist saying directly that they were influenced by another artist NOT smoking gun? And ironically i think you are over intellectualize it because you are now contradicting your pwn original argument about the Beatles being influential
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right his first few mixtapes were as K. Dot.
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A snippet of Father Stretch My Hands:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JeR4PJB5j0 Kanye even played it in his car while the paparazzi caught him a week ago (@ 0:15): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlWWXUhwsZY Sounds incredible. |
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Because you're saying it's not subjective, but self-report measures (like open ended questions and testimonies) are *always* biased. In the realm of rational empiricism, someone saying something is never a smoking gun. Why knows why they really said it? There's no way to tell. Have to be able to establish some validity in these scenarios and there's no test for how much so-and-so's statement about what influenced him truly reflects what actually influenced him. How are yo not getting this? And no, I'm not contradicting my argument, I'm saying none of this is-- not my argument, not yours, not that terrible paper's author-- is 100% scientifically measurable, because all of it is just basically opinion, or someone else's opinion, or someone's own statement about the past. My argument is that kind argument that the Beatles are influencial is not something that can be measured scientifically. So I'm pretty much just saying the same shit over and over and over at this point. Can we be done? |
Another Father Stretch My Hands snippet: https://vid.me/KH9U
You can hear the Gospel elements here. Amazing. |
Just an observation:
Flashing Lights, Street Lights, All of the Lights, High Lights. |
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Wow, that's the shortest snippet of a song I've ever heard, but DAMN I'm excited to hear that track now!! Fuck me, man. |
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Whatcha gettin' at here, redux? (Good name for a greatest hits collection... Doesn't seem like Kanye's speed, that, and also it would have to be like three discs long, but... ya never know!) |
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He's actually pretty laid back around all those cameras now. I love how he stops for pics with kids. That's sweet. I'm pretty sure he was not talking to anyone on the phone in this clip ... *maybe* listening to a message, but probably just trying to avoid contact. Still, I've met smaller celebrities that acted like much bigger dicks. |
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But again this is where you are over intellectualizing it. Stop. Think. Think about guitar. IF an artist says point blank they were directly influenced by another artist it is not necessarily pure emotions or opinion. It is simply pointing out who taught you something you previously didn't know. For example who taught me the upstroke technique? Literally it was my friend Samau when were in a blue jam band together. What was the very first song i ever used the upstroke to play and learn this technique? Chuck Berry Around and Around. So if i say my use of upstroke is influenced by Chuck Berry i am not merely being nostalgic or sympathetic, i am telling you exactly where i learned it. |
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Yeah, according to you. Don't take it personall. It's just a fact of research. Self-report measures are the least reliable. Doesn't matter if you're telling the absolute truth or not, if you're the only one who "knows" it's the truth, it's not a reliable data point. Want you're talking about works ok in qualitative research, but it's generally avoided in quantitative. Just saying. |
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Yeah, I know. He obviously likes lights. Think of all the times they're mentioned in these songs... Still would be a good title for a best of. But whatevs |
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I'm not hurting my argument that the Beates are influential by saying that music theory relies at least partially on non-scientific research. |
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maybe he's going to make like twelve "Lights" songs then compile them on an album as a song suite called All Of The "Lights." Ha! |
Don't like the new Future mixtape.
Been a fan since Pluto. Really liked Honest, Monster and 56 Nights.. but now I'm starting to get bored of him. |
4 days for the greatest album of the year.
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Evol? I thought it was a proper studio album? |
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Yeah man! Would LOVE to know what it's called and see the cover art. |
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"Given name" rappers are the future! |
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Oddly, I listened to DS2 again the other day and didn't think it was terrible. I mean, I didn't think it was great... nowhere near. But I got trough several tracks before I switched it to something more interesting. |
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No it's not hard. I'm not having difficulty understanding anything you're saying, and I'm sure you're not having any trouble with what I'm saying. We obviously come from different academic backgrounds, and speak overlapping but still different languaes. I thought you were saying that it was somehow possible to make an actual scientific case out of this. And while I do think and know that the Beatles are influential, I wouldn't ever try to back that scientifically. So, I'm sure we're both right about a lot of stuff. I'm good here. You good? We good? Also, did you effing listen to "I Want you (she's so heavy)" or not, because I'm really interested in what you think of that particular song. |
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Oh hell no. But I do think it makes it easier for an artist to have a wide-ranging impact. Look at Kanye and Kendrick. They're accepted more readily by more people than folks named after gun models or drugs. It's good branding for crossover artists when your name doesn't restrict you to a genre (sorry, Ghostface Killah) |
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I have Evol now. I haven't listened to it yet, except for previewing some tracks. Also got the new Wiz. Any news on THE ALBUM that's supposed to be out in 3 days but still doesn't have a confirmed title or cover? Part of me worried we ain't gonna get an album, and that he'll just do the MSG show. Fuh!! |
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Peyton Manning had a press conference where Snoop Dogg asked him a question he replied, "well, snoop..."
Rap names can become legit |
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