Age and cultural memory.
 

Right, so, the 'first CDs' thread got me thinking. A lot of bands that, to me, are new-ish are actually now quite old. I read an article about Bloc Party saying they're part of the 'old guard' of indie now. While, in my cultural memory, they're still pretty new. And only on their 2nd album. This isn't a 'young people's culture isn't like in my day' because, to be honest, it's not that different. I just have better things to worry about than the latest hairstyle of my favourite lead singer.

BUT.

It is quite disturbing how some of the posters round here make me feel like 'youth culture' is a distant world from me when, in fact, I'm only 25.

So I suppose this thread is an appeal to the genuinely old posters (I'm looking in your direction, Messrs L and 'racist' Marras) as to how one deals with this without becoming a belligerent old twat whinging about how young people don't understand things properly (I'm sure I don't have to name names there).

You young 'uns can keep playing with your bloody gameboxes and intercubes in the meantime.

Im 22 but every day i feel older and older. In actuality i dont think ive ever felt part of any youth culture whatsoever because i dont think ive ever identified well with the vast majority of people my age. Thats my defence when people day "oh youre such a miserable old sod" - to be old you have to have been young at one time, and people have been calling me a grumpy old git as long as i can remember. So really, i havent aged at all, so when i rant against people younger than me, i feel the same as i do when i rant against people older than me.

I'm a 33 year old, you ageist, racist twat! Anyway, I've never particularly acted my age (whatever it was at whatever time), so I've never really been conscious of what you're supposed to say, think or do when you are in your teens, 20's or 30's. Growing old is not something that worries me in the slightest, because I've always felt older than my age anyway, but I still get as enthusiastic about certain things the same way that I did as a kiddie. I'm timeless, me. Me. Me. Me. Me.

ditto, but i tend to think the people under 21 are just getting stupider (not all of them, but the majority). seriously, i'm 27 and some of the people who were on my course at university (who are only about 6 years yonger than me), when i hang out with them individually it's fine, but if i'm with a group of them i feel a bit out of place. and i'm not agist either. but then maybe if some who was 6 years older than me hung out with me and my friends, maybe they'd feel the same way.

<--- belligerent old whinging twat


actually, not really. I don't care so much what you young'uns think is cool these days.

I had a conversation with my friend a few weeks back about how we just accept that most "new music scenes" will sound like crap to us. that's just how it goes.

BACK IN THE DAY I'm sure it was the same. people 10+ years older most likely thought that MY music was crap. the only difference between now and then is, I had more of a compulsion to argue it.

also, now that I've had more experience, I know that people in bands are just that....people. more often than not, they are undeserving of any kind of hero status.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, as I put less value into the bands that I like (and have liked), I don't care about being oppositional about the bands I hate.

yes, I may be behind in what's freshly cool, but that doesn't really bother me.

ahh, sweet apathy.

To answer your question more in detail, if you are one of those young people who are ultra self-conscious of being young while you are growing up, you are most certainly bound to have problems when the age on your passport doesn't show that you are in your 20's anymore. I have a real problem relating to two sets of people here, and there's plenty of proof that both types exist:

1- Ageing musician/listener who starts whinging about this and that and directs their bitterness at the young and fresh, regularly culminating in the reminisce of how better things were or how there is not QUALITY anymore. Said person was too often pretty uninteresting even at a young age, but they still attach themselves to memories that were, perhaps, more often just average or below that level.

2 - Self-conscious young person who gets into this and that because that's what a young person is meant to do, but ultimately enjoys little of it, and regularly defends himself/herself for continuous crapness with the excuse that 'I'm young!'. This type gets on my tits only when this continuous reminding older people that they are young is just an excuse for shortcomings, but said shortcomings are presented with unmitigated arrogance.

So, in a way, I feel like I've always shaped my own cultural landscape, and nothing old or new particularly affects the way I might approach a record that is made by youngsters who feel like a 2 years period of time in music is meant to be a long while.

by the way, I'm already regretting posting an actual opinion of mine versus general nonsense.

please forget my above post and replace it with:

The only thing that ever bothers me about younger music fans (I am almost 34 years old) is their general failure to notice or care about where the music they love comes from. They , and I lump myself when I was 16-23 into this, have a hard time hearing something and assimilating it into the overall continuum of music and musacl exploration and innovation. This is not due to stupidity but purely due to lack of exposure to older music.

most music fans I know that really like MUSIC as opposed to specific bands or scenes, see this in themselves and get curious as to why people refer to an older band when talking about a new band, or why bands that sound a certain way name-drop the same older bands. This starts a musical exploration which is very fulfilling, and never ending.

this all can be said about anything YOUTH CULTURE. Youth culture thinks everything that is a part of it is brand new, never before seen, never befor heard, and all important!

You're only twenty five years old!? I thought you were like, forty!

I don't agree with that at all. It may have been the case in the sixties, or during punk, but currently, youth culture seems obsessed with the past. Certainly more than when I was in my late teens, early 20s. This new generation have information on tap. The rise of CDs has led to a massive process of reissueing old 'classics.' Old records when I was a teen was largely the preserve of dusty old vinyl collectors. Now anyone with a few quid/bucks/yen can get the complete works of Robert Johnson, ffs - delivered to their door. I wonder how many people in their teens and early 20s had even HEARD of Robert Johnson, let alone listened to him, in the 80s.

With all due deference to yourself, Mr Instigator - and I think you can take a bit of banter, unlike a lot of people here I disagree with - It's this sort of attitude that I want to avoid. I quite often want strangle people with their own intestines when I hear them saying, "Oh, they ripped off band x" or try and tell kiddies half their age that new band x were influenced by old band y. It's annoying and patronising. People listen to music, and they should, and although some people are receptive to influence lists, the overwhelming majority of people genuinely don't care where the music comes from, they just like to listen to it.

In response to other responses - I'm not self-conscious of getting old. Men are at their sexiest between my age and about 40-45 or so, provided I don't get bloated. I've always been a miserable cunt, and I quite enjoy it. My concern is more that bands The Cribs, the Libertines and Bloc Party are all great bands, or at least have great songs, and it takes me so fucking long to figure that out. The Libertines had been split up years by the time I realised they had some brilliant tunes. It's only because I don't keep my ears to the floor any more, or at least keep my ears on different floors. Culture: it's getting broader.

I didn't intend a 'I'm getting older, help!' thread (that would make me gay, in a bad way) but more of a 'hey guys, hows about some reflections on the encroaching grey hand of death, eh?'

You know, you're not the first person on this forum to say that? I'm taking it as a compliment, ta.

I didn't mean it in any detrimental way, you're just that sort of 'wise' character.

It's true, I am wise. And I have an enormous cock. If I wasn't such an overbearing cunt all the time I'd be dripping with fanny.

Everyone experiences their actual age in a different way. A 25 year old with a family and a mortgage is probably gonna feel a lot 'older' than a 35 year old with a minimum of commitments. Fuckin hell, all the blokes in my dad's generation looked like Fred Astaire by the time they hit 30.

I'm not totally sure about what you're getting at. I think all the bands that you've mentioned above aren't that great, but that has nothing to do with the fact that there's youngsters in they're ranks, even if some of your Pete Dohertys etc are at an age closer to their 30's now. Still, there are at least 4 songs by The Libertines that I quite like, a couple of them by Bloc Party, and I don't recall ever hearing a song by The Cribs, so therefore I wouldn't know. That's nothing to do with anything, just a general lack of talent, they could have been in their 500's and I'd still think the same. The whole fast-ageing thing comes from weekly publications like the NME, where bands have been generally discarded very, very quickly and the turnover has been very,very fast for quite some time. This started happening from the early 90's onwards, I suppose, creating a culture where a 29 year old is made to feel like a rock dinosaur because by the time they reached the third album, another 5 scenes appeared more quickly than you can say New Grave or New Rave. That sort of pressure created a culture of bullying that destroyed a lot of bands, even some of those ones that, perhaps, could have turned into something more durable.

Was it the same size when you were a 7 year old? It must have been a real burden and all that, little twat.

Remember a few years ago when The Alarm released a single and pretended that rather than an ageing 80s indie band they were young kids wearing leather jackets? Whatever obsession people have with youth being "vibrant", it does leave the door open for alot of cultural mischief such as this.

everything "new" is connected to the past in some way, but youth culture, true youth culture, not the bullshit marketed youth culture the corporations wish to foist on the kids so they spend their allowances, is only obsessed with the past in order to destroy it.

that is what youth does.

just because music is available does not mean that it is accepted by the youth culture.

hey man, that is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Music lovers of any age are curious and interested to hear about related bands, projects, music that influenced their band, etc. I am not the type to tell anyone their music susks because it "rips off so-and-so" or because "so-and-so did it better".

I am more along the lines of "hey, if you like band A, you may like this older band B that was kick ass ten years ago."
and when this type of music talk goe son, and a kid of 20 comes off like a fucking asshole treating me or anyone like a dipshit old relic just because they offer mention of a worthwhile band from the past, THAT is the shit that makes ME mad!

and THEY ALMOST ALL GROW OUT OF IT!

and if they don't they turn out like those fucking loser ass 35 year olds you see that believe all music peaked when they were 22. You know the type.
It goes both ways. I like when younger fans tell me, "hey, you like unwound and sonic youth? You may like this BAND X, that is new"

and I do not know if you agree but it has been my experience that the "overwhelming majority of people" are fucking idiot sheep who will gorge on whatever is offered them, with no critical thought.

Still don't see what you mean.

1. When has there ever been a 'true' youth culture? It's always been manipulated by adults and corporations in some way, in order to make money. They didn't GIVE Elvis records away, you know.

2. In what way does it want to 'destroy' the past? And if anything, I'd like it a lot more if it at least tried to. The past is OK, but no place to live in.

Edit: Directed at Mr Instigator at the top of the page there.

Yes, well... it's a difficult line to tread between 'healthy appreciator' and 'that cunt who always knows best'. I'm sure you tread it very well, I know many who don't. I go to a lot of jazz nights, there's always some old dullard who's insistent on telling me the history of British Dixie (often the same bloke, if I'm honest) and there's the odd one or two who do it without making me not want to listen to them.

And, to Mr Marras - It really doesn't matter, but I was more getting at the fact that it takes me far too long to realise that a band exists and have good tunes, by which time they've usually split up/ done a Radiohead or become Muse.

Well, "youth culture" often identifies people or ideas as being the leaders/originators of the general trends therein who are in actuality outsiders and free thinkers who come to their conclusions partly as a result of their separation. And of course, these people are turned into the archetypes of the "movements" they are associated with - Jim Morrison, Johnny Rotten etc.

youth cukture was CREATED with elvis and buddy holly and bill haley and little richard and CHUCK BERRY

before the 1950's there was NO YOUTH CULTURE. there was just the new, the avant garde, the cutting edge and anyone, from 10 to 90 was invited to partake.

Hip Hop, Raves, techno, punk, hardcore, noise, METAL, hippies, beatniks, etc. were all soaked up by corporate concerns AFTER their creation and fermentation. sure someone sold and pressed the records, but not until the old farts saw that kids are willing to buy new stuff does any corporate people ever care.

the hippies tried to destroy the status quo (the past). the punks tried to destroy the status quo, the hardcore kids tried to destroy the status quo, the alternative indie scene of the 80's tried to destroy the status quo, The hip hop phenomenon of the 80s also, the post-rock scene of the past 8 years has tried to destroy the status quo.

the new becomes the status quo, by trying to destroy it thereby setting itself up to be destroyed by the next thing to come out of the inventive youth.

the past ten yars has seen the rise of TWEEN culture

for real, and HOW STUPID IS THIS.

I hate when talking heads on TV mention the "tween" market.

10-12 year olds. jesus fucking christ.

edit:- rob: i was talking about today's youth culture, which you seemed to be implying had too little respect for the past.

I absolutely and most vehemently disagree. People are NOT idiots. Not all of them. It's incredibly patronising to suggest that 'people gorge on what is offered them' because I'm sure someone who knows more than you on, say, books, could easily call you an idiot for not reading book x or whatever. People are into what they're into.

Ok, I can offer a context for this argument - I was hanging out with this girl a few years ago. She was loads of fun, but not terribly bright, or so I thought. She was into Blink 182 and Green Day and that sort of thing. I turned her onto a few things, and she wasn't overly interested. No big deal. One day we get talking about history. She knew ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING and was only 19. Seriously, she was a complete genius when it came to history (and also fashion, but that probably doesn't appeal to my herewith audience). She would definitely fit your category of 'dumb, listens to what she's fed' with regards music. But I very nearly dismissed her when, in fact, she had (still has in fact) a hell of a lot to offer me. That she's not that into music is really one of the very smallest things imaginable.

From another perspective - I very rarely talk about film. I know full well that I don't like film, and if I tell people what my favourite films are they're not cultured or cool enough or whatever. I don't care, I like what I like and film is not a medium of art that interests me, at all, for any reason. If anything it's wankers telling me that a film isn't 'cultured' enough that makes me not want to watch films. Let people be is my general ethos. I mean, I could school people on whatever my fields of expertise are, but you just come across like a wanker if you do that in public or with your friends. Seriously.

by definition, youth culture is involved in the new, the NOW, the today, not with the past or any influences. the best of youth culture creates something out of threads of past influence that is new.

hip hop HAD to have funk, and soul, and rock, and even disco come before it before it could coalesce and create a new form.

punk in the ramones style could not have existed with out chuck berry.

these things are true, but at the moment of a new creation or development, too many people blindly praise it as wholly and completely original, and those dues are the ones that get annoying to me.

this is all true dude, but we are talking about YOUTH CULTURE, meaning fads, slang, cutting egde style and music and art etc. all this shit either gets lost to history or absorbed into Mainstream popular culture, like hip hop/punk/techno etc have. all I ahve written on this thread applies to youth culture, not to just people living day to day lives man. to each their own is my life's motto!@

That makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, I'm afraid.

Edit: By which I mean it seems like you're suggesting that youth culture is somehow different from people just being into what they're into, which, it seems, is precisely what youth culture would be made up of.

Y'know, rather than some abstract entities have an abstract culture made up of abstract youths dancing abstractly.

ROB: Everything you say is true, and there's nothing wrong with acknowledging past debts, but to over-emphasise it loses sight on what's REALLY happening now, in its own right.

Take a band like The Cramps, who are steeped in influences from the past. What ultimately makes them a far more interesting band than, say, The Stray Cats is that they did something contemporary WITH those influences. Acknowledging influence is one thing, but dwelling on it destroys the present.

That'd be the death of everything, including music.

oh i see, this was your latest elaborate ironic ruse. stop wasting time on the internet brian.

You do raise a good point. However, I was an indie kid in the past, and probably still am to some degree. They have all written some alright tunes, to my mind. I don't do irony.

And, furthermore, you can prick off, cripple.

irony, contratrianism... po-tay-toe/po-tah-toe

I like sonic youth.

if you like sonic youth, I (most likely) like you too (and think you have good taste).

if you don't like sonic youth, fuck off.

that's as shallow as I get these days.

this whole irony issue is so annoying. Someone says they like Paris Hilton, Avril Lavigne, Libertines, whatever and it's immediately assumed they're being 'ironic' and that they only REALLY like them in a 'so bad they're good' kind of way. It's actually possible to find great pleasure in listening to them while still recognising their obvious shortcomings.

Besides, i'd certainly say that someone like Avril Lavigne is FAR better at what she does, than a band like, say, Blonde Redhead are at what THEY do.

I'm so putting an AIDS-curse on you right now.