[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by guest

okay suchman, the problem lies not in their 'finding of god' so much as it is that this discovery is so ideologically opposed to what endeared swans to me in the first place.

That is a fair critique, and one which is often behind how people lose relative interest or passion in some of their favorite artists' later works as those artists naturally progress, evolve as humans.

there was a definite shift however around the time subsequent to children of god (with this new 'love-life' approach certainly permeating that record's intense spiritualism ughhhh) where gira seemed to allow some light into his worldview, albeit still tempering it with a liberal dose of his signature brutality.

I'm glad I wasn't totally off-base on my interpretation of these past two records as being about acceptance. I don't think they've lost their edge or fierceness, its just tempered, and in this way a more mature glimpse into our inner darkness, but as you've said, having the perspective of finally transcended it. In this way, the earlier Swans reflects the perspective o the Initiate, where as these past few records reflect a Transcendent Master. I don't think the abrasive Nihilistic approach has changed or been lost, IF ANYTHING THESE ARE SOME OF THE MOST SONICALLY BRUISING AND DEAFENING SWANS RECORDS EVER (GUITAR AND NOISEWISE) but the lyrical theme and overall "feel" of these records is much different. Its again, tempered by experience.

the new stuff, however, simply doesn't feel honest in that gira's worldview has undoubtedly changed. on the new record, take something like 'some things we do' or 'screenshot' where he is merely rattling off phrases which could have been picked out of a swans lyrics hat for fuck's sake. therein lies the caricature (forgive me for the skewed thought, I'm real fucking tired).

Forgive you for what, posting some of the best SYG music discussions ever? Substantive? Honest? Compelling? Keep it up yo, I'm having the most fun in years talking about these records and reading you and dead_battery's perspectives. I disagree with you here in this one regard, how are they not honest records just because the perspective has changed? If anything, aren't they then MORE honest? After all, would you have rather Gira just faked it and shit out an imitation of early Swans music? Wouldn't you rather he as an artist share his newest art that reflects his most recent developments and perspective as an artist? Also, I disagree with your shrugging off some songs as if they were just haphazardly cut-and-paste constructed to sound sort of like Gira music. I think that 'Things We Do' is not a caricature of early Swans kind of almost sadistic music, rather, its a more honest self-reflection, in the same way that dead_battery described, letting society be portrayed on its own terms and left to fester. However, society is not always as brutal as it can be at its worst, and even the darkest night has some light, inward, in finding beauty in life, even through suffering. In this way, I think Swans on this record and those songs are not merely trying to have a throwback, but revisit the same themes and imagery which has always been a part of their music, but from the more transcended perspective. So why the earlier records approach this themes with a growl, I think these last few records approach them more with an empathetic sigh.

conversely, while gira and swans are using a markedly similar palette to that which they used on soundtracks for the blind, the purpose of the music is no longer to overwhelm but rather to achieve transcendence, to rise above the murk in which their music was previously grounded, if not inextricably immersed in.

SEE, THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE I AGREE AND DISAGREE WITH YOU. I agree that you've nailed the description of the "Swans" approach to music, a kind of immersion in the sonic destruction and abrasiveness, but that is why I disagree with your criticisms of To Be Kind. That shit immerses you deeper than any other Swans records in the pure SOUND of their cruelty. You are overwhelmed, overcome, and flooded SONICALLY by the feedback, the intensity, the distortion, the choreographed chaos, its everything that Swans has always done, but much like Sonic Nurse from Sonic Youth, just much more mature and sophisticated. You are overwhelmed to the point of transcendence, and really, isn't that kind of the point? Should suffering ONLY be about wallowing in the void and emptiness of it, or after enough DECADES of life should human beings not be expected to transcend their lives because of this life-long experience?

it was this latter approach which drew me to them; a 15 year old kid jaded by the sad state of rock music, seeing music that didn't so much obscure the light as it did totally invert it, rendering the whole world black. to then shift so dramatically unfortunately, to me, means that it is not befitting of the swans name,

HERE IS THE CRUX OF OUR DISAGREEMENT. You want Swans to appeal to the 15 year old you, but that is not who they are anymore, and really, is that who you are? Are you still 15? Do you really want to be that person forever? Swans recent few records reflect more particularly their age, that they've at the least matured through their experience as humans. That is what life is about, and art reflects life. If the artists is trapped in the 15 year old mindset, they have failed.

THIS IS SWANS, CUNT. it goes far beyond mere descriptors of it being 'dark' and 'heavy', and yet I feel that their current output can for better or worse be reduced to said adjectives, even when much of the time it is indeed much more than that, because of michael gira's almost comical approach to lyrics and vocalisation now.

What is funny is I thought some of the 1990s shit was much more comical and campy, and this shit felt a bit more sincere. If anything, it sounds to me like in artists' terms "has found his voice" more confidently than before. It is different, definitely, but I think your not fair in your insistence that in its being so different that its disingenuous. .

I read every word of all the posts here, I was so excited just to talk about Swans because nobody outside of SYG I know likes this music or band, so I hope y'all take the time to read and reflect on all of my post