[infinitemusic]

Originally Posted by Glice

Ok, fair point. The point I was making about 'youth against fascism' is more that, although there are 'real-world' politics in that song, the very notion of being against fascism is latent in pretty much everything except for fascist bands; even people like Skrewdriver sometimes deny being fascist. I was more using the concept of being 'against fascism' as a hook, rather than that song in particular 'proving' whatever sprurious point I was making a whole 2 days ago.

I don't really see why that matters at all. And not only that, but I totally disagree. There's no such thing as "latent" anti-fascism. Most bands, I'm sure, have never even thought about fascism, let alone where they stand on the idea. And plenty of them probably don't even know what fascism actually is. And Skrewdriver, which I'm guessing is one of the fascist bands your talking about, actually has a place in the whole fascist rock band thing, for or against it. Not many bands do. It's just like saying that because someone in the band is gay, that makes it a "gay band". It doesn't.

The difference is that I like it; the difference is that Miley Cyrus speaks to literally 10s of millions of children across the world, while Black Flag significantly fewer. I wouldn't ever make a political beacon out of Cyrus, nor is there any point my defending my liking of her (I like her, you don't, that's life etc) but I was using an allusion to empirical statistics to illustrate her influence. I don't honestly believe that she's going to bring about global revolution, but she's paradigmatic of a certain trend in mainstream culture. I still hate punk, but that's neither here nor there.

What point are you even trying to make? Just because you like Miley's music and millions of retarded middle class white preteens agree with you, you think that her music is somehow more valid? All of your points against Punk music, which I agree with, by the way, go tens of millions of times more for her music. After thinking about it, I really don't think you do have a point to make and, frankly, the fact that you don't like Fugazi makes me think they might be good since you listen to the absolute shittiest music on the planet and think you're special because of it.

I think the problem I always have with the idea of political music is that Fugazi will always be the shittest band I can think of. So boorishly American in their opposition, it makes me wonder if this won't turn out to be the most politically influential song from an American in years to come.

How does this not apply to all the bullshit music you listen to? And for the record, I like pop music a lot. Just ... good pop music.

No. Absolutely not. There is absolutely no way you're pulling that petty bourgeouis shit on me. The 'working class' are by no means lumpen proles, party but powerless to the changes made by the ruling overlords. The change comes about (if it comes about, when it comes about, if a change is needed) as a result of everyone, not just the priveleged classes.

Give some examples. Historically it seems that the only way the underclass can change anything is through violent conflict because of the inherent inequalities due to their lack of money. It really doesn't seem to be any different now. Why do you think I'm wrong?

I don't think that's true. Not in Britain at least. But there's a huge difference between bands that did make it and bands that didn't (the latter of which there are legions more). Punk is by no means a 'working class' thing, but when it works it works because it seeks to break down the class barriers - everyone comes along for a good time, regardless of who they are. I'd argue that the more ostensibly a-political rave scene does this better, but that's neither here nor there.

I don't know anything about Britain and wasn't talking about it because I don't live there or really care about their culture in regards to this discussion. But for what it's worth, Britain's version of punk always struck me as even more hilariously posturing than America's. The Sex Pistols are a perfect example of that. They dressed and acted in a way that had no purpose other than to get attention, and their whole "we hate rock" shtick was funny, but their music is nothing special or different from the rock they supposedly hated, except possibly lyrically. Even then they fuck it up because they wrote shitty lyrics.