[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

I gather that you're looking for a camera to film your own vids, so I would recommend getting a 3CCD camera with an interchangeable lens system (preferably). The Canon XL H1 is a bit expensive, but performs well. It films in full HD and SD on MiniDV tapes.
(Let's not forget that HD works way better than SD, in low light situations).

the xl h1 is way too expensive, about 20 times what he's thinking of spending (if im doing the math right, i havne't had breakfast). however, a used/older model standard def 3CCD should do fine. 3CCD however is not all that matters, i just bought some dvc20 pannys that are 3CCD and reportedly entry level "pro" yet lack good manual aperture controls to be any kind of pro anything, it's just a consumer camera on a shoulder-mounted shell. the CCDs are a mere 1/6" and they do ok but just ok.

the xl h1 doesn't really do full HD-- that's kind of a myth of prosumer cameras. that they do. they all take shortcuts with resolution & color. int he case of the h1 the cmos are 1440x1080 and have mpg audio.

if you want a real uncompressed hd you gotta get a cine alta. $$$$.

the red scarlet is threatening to other prosumer cams out of the water when it comes out. the red one (the current, pro one) is pricey and for digital filmmaking only. but the beauty of the red system (for what i understand) is that you decide frame size, framerate, and basically everything. i have friends who have attended live demos with the camera and unfortunately i wasn't able to be present at one. the other advantage is that it uses 35mm sensors & it takes advantage of having interchangeable cinema lenses.

anyway, resolution is not all that is cracked up to be; so for someone who wants to shoot little movies i'd rather recommend a GOOD standard definition camera with real controls. and fuck low light, learn to light a scene properly is what i'd tell him.

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

Another important feature to look out for, is a camera that has a DV terminal with in/out.
Handy for when you finish rendering your film and want to make multiple backups on tape, alongside the harddrive master.
I wouldn't count on any software you get with the camera. Most are too simple and unstable. Go for the real deal.

real deal needs not be expensive, final cut express lets you edit fine for $100, so does premiere elements.

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

As for the Red, !@#$%!? Looks like a very nice Hi-end camera, but I can't find all the specifications on it to decide if it's worth the $$.
Besides, rendering anything above 3k is out of the question if you don't have the right hardware to handle the terabits of footage.
I can understand getting one of these if you're Bill Viola or someone working for a studio that uses the IMAX format.
Not your average consumer product.

well the xl h1 is hardly your average consumer product either. i'd pick the sony ex1 over it, but it's still $7K! but with the red scarlet coming out at under $3,000, it's going to blow the competition out of the water. and again for what i understand (i might be mistaken) you don't need to shoot at 3K with it, you can go smaller.

the red one, which shoots 4K, costs about 1/3 of a cine alta, so i'd say hell yeah it's worth the money for someone looking to get into digital filmmaking in a serious way, it's making huge inroads at the moment.

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

Oh, and Final Cut rules above all. If you don't believe me, got take a look at what they're using in most professional film studios.

i use both, avid is way better for me, less dumb, more fine control, more options, better color correction tools, and it's better for a lot of film studios too. the latest batman was edited on avid for jeeves sakes. avid has a huge range of solutions for film & tv production that are industrial strength and can handle any size workflow. final cut works fine for small quick projects but when you have massive footage, avid works well. when you have 30 hours of footage avid kicks fcp in the ass.

fcp is nice, and convenient, but it's just another tool.

see for example:

http://www.avid.co.uk/company/press/...asp?taxID=3646
last king of scotland, the queen, pan's labyrith, babel, children of men, united 93, casino royale, pirates of the caribbean--edited on avid

and here's the latest feature on batman:

http://www.avid.com/showcase/the-dark-knight.asp

--

however for small amateur DV/HDV movies you can edit FINE on final cut EXPRESS without forking out a fucking fortune on PRO. it's almost identical to FCP minus the high resolutions and other high end tools.

http://www.apple.com/finalcutexpress/

anyway, he can do fine with little money just making a few smart choices.

oh man, interesting. we got an avid in our editing room and I think nobody uses it, everybody uses final cut on macs. maybe I should give it a try. how is the learn curve with it, is it worth it? (I think I may know the answer)

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by al shabbray

oh man, interesting. we got an avid in our editing room and I think nobody uses it, everybody uses final cut on macs. maybe I should give it a try. how is the learn curve with it, is it worth it? (I think I may know the answer)

learning curve is higher, it's harder to learn, but the payoff is big. fcp caters to the lazy heee hee. well no, it's just easier. but if you do avid, you can do fcp; however, if you can do fcp you can't do avid. it's like driving stick shift.

i'd go nuts without my avid subclips. also the timeline has 2 modes (segment mode & trim mode) while fcp has only 1 (stuck in what would be avid's segment mode). they both have their strengths and weaknesses and you gotta choose what's best for each project.

what i love about avid is that it imposes a more systematic & organized approach which keeps you from getting confused down the line, whereas fcp is more fluid but more prone to make a mess. definitely learn & enjoy both!

[Bertrand]

I keep taking notes.
Next week I get new eyeglasses, after which I go to shops and ask clever questions based upon your reflections.
I'll eventually come back with one or two links to the object I might acquire within the next 10 days, so that you can spell a warning if it's not proper.

[Tokolosh]

I'm well aware of Avid's capabilities !@#$%!, but to say that FCP can't handle large projects, that it's messy, for lazy people, etc, is a load of hogwash. Both of these software packages are used by professionals.
I've edited countless projects that were over two hours long, simultaneously working with 4-5 camera sources in the same timeline. Let me add that you'll at least need a dual-core, for it to run smoothly.
FCP isn't necessarily easier. It's interface is friendlier, that's all.
The rules for colour correcting are always the same, no matter what video software you use.
Again, the only thing that differs is the way it's represented. The calculating formula is almost identical.

"but if you do avid, you can do fcp; however, if you can do fcp you can't do avid."
^Sorry, but I won't even bother commenting on such an infantile claim.

I guess it's just a matter of preference.
Both of these programs can be upgrade or modified to speedup your workflow. For example, you can create your own filters, transitions, menus, actions (batch processing), and much more. It's very important to find your own way of sorting, naming and managing your files to suit all your needs. If you use any of these programs on a regular basis, you'll inevitably discover various shortcuts to make your editing easier and less time-consuming.

As for movies edited with these two powerful packages?
Well, the films you mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg. There's an equally impressive list of movies that you can thank FCP for. Happy editing.

 

Bertrand. I think that the Canon HG21 that comes out in September, is more in your price range. It's compact and has a full HD resolution (1920x1080). It'll cost around € 1500. Not bad at all.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Bertrand

My intentions are to shoot short fiction movies (previous ones lasted around 10-15 minutes).
It's intended to be edited and burned on DVD for friends.
Nothing towards the internet.

The editing program is a question, yes, as I'm quite dissatisfied with the mpeg2-Nero combination. I haven't sorted that out now.

Looks like I'd have to spend twice as much as I can afford. Well well.
Plus if I do I'll feel embarrassed if I don't use the thing twice a year. It's gonna ruin the fun. Gotta think.

oh hey man i seem to have missed this message.

i say get yourself a nice USED gl1 or gl2 canon. gl1 is older but you can find it cheaper. they were nice cameras! and a good intro level. i bet you can score a great deal if you search around hard enough. if you're super-lucky maybe you could even get a dvx100 for little money-- that's the camera i have and it makes lovely footage, the cine-gamma is great, and it has xlr inputs etc.

most important man that you dont get suckered into a consumer camera with shitty automatic controls-- you want MANUAL. manual focus, manual aperture, manual white balance, manual zoom. and i don't mean that you can adjust these with a little button inside a menu, i mean knobs that are sticking out of the camera body & that you can control while shooting.

that's the most fucking important thing you need really-- the rest is secondary/superfluous in my opinion.

and go for mini-DV. while it's already an ageing format, it's perfect for editing, media is cheap and widely available (you can find tapes in the supermarket), and any and all software will be compatible with it.

about turning mini-DV into dvd, that's another story that will require sorting out later in the future...

[Bertrand]

OK, so changes happened.
Last week I met this guy who had been looking for photographers for his wedding. We do a little talking, and he tells me people in power in his place of work have decided to get rid of what they'd been working with. Including cameras. I asked what kind of camera it was, he noted it down, and there could be news by two weeks.
Until then, I don't do any other research, as it'd come for free; the XL1; if there's one.

you are a lucky one

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Bertrand

OK, so changes happened.
Last week I met this guy who had been looking for photographers for his wedding. We do a little talking, and he tells me people in power in his place of work have decided to get rid of what they'd been working with. Including cameras. I asked what kind of camera it was, he noted it down, and there could be news by two weeks.
Until then, I don't do any other research, as it'd come for free; the XL1; if there's one.

FUCKING A

GREAT CAMERA

CONGRATS

exactly what you need, and more! well worth the cost of repairs etc. i'd suggest you download the manual & study it carefully. it might need maintenance int he near future but that's usually replacing the heads and that's cheap. fuck man, the xl1 is one great little camera. SCORE!!!

[akprodr]

Yes, that is a kick-ass camera.

But since I just saw this thread, I would highly recommend the Canon HV-30. Give it a lot of light and it produces an amazing picture. Limited manual control but there are workarounds. Yes, HDV with all its limitations and the CMOS rolling shutter thing but for the money, ya get a lotta bang for the buck.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by akprodr

Limited manual control but there are workarounds.

like what? im curious.

usually those "workarounds" require the use of some kind of shitty menu screen.

i think the xl1 FTW. but convince me? i like to learn.

[akprodr]

Oh, no, given the choice of a free XL-1 or pay for a HV30, I'd jump at the XL-1. But it depends on what you want to do with the camera. You can 'run and gun' with the XL-1. Change settings on the fly etc.

The HV30, for 'professional' use is more like a big film camera. Set your settings and hit record. Don't think about changing anything because it is so small the slightest touch will show as an earthquake in the image.

People think so much of this $1K camera that they put pricey focal length adapters on them.



But manual control on the HV20:

1. set your shutter speed--most people like the 24FPS mode so use 1/48
2. point the camera at a light--idealy you should be able to vary the brightness or you can just move the camera to a spot of correct brightness.
3. Set a fixed exposure value (+/-)
4. Now half-press the photo button and the exposure (f-stop/shutter) will appear on the LCD. If it is 2.8, you're ready to go. If not, adjust the light until it does.
5. Now, you have manual control of the iris using the exposure value control. Plus the camera will not add gain (which is otherwise totally automatic and invisible on the LCD display)

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by akprodr

Oh, no, given the choice of a free XL-1 or pay for a HV30, I'd jump at the XL-1. But it depends on what you want to do with the camera. You can 'run and gun' with the XL-1. Change settings on the fly etc.

The HV30, for 'professional' use is more like a big film camera. Set your settings and hit record. Don't think about changing anything because it is so small the slightest touch will show as an earthquake in the image.

People think so much of this $1K camera that they put pricey focal length adapters on them.



But manual control on the HV20:

1. set your shutter speed--most people like the 24FPS mode so use 1/48
2. point the camera at a light--idealy you should be able to vary the brightness or you can just move the camera to a spot of correct brightness.
3. Set a fixed exposure value (+/-)
4. Now half-press the photo button and the exposure (f-stop/shutter) will appear on the LCD. If it is 2.8, you're ready to go. If not, adjust the light until it does.
5. Now, you have manual control of the iris using the exposure value control. Plus the camera will not add gain (which is otherwise totally automatic and invisible on the LCD display)

so how do you do a rack focus on that?

regardless, it shoots hdv-- major suckage.

im stashing funds aside for the red scarlet...

[akprodr]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

so how do you do a rack focus on that?

If yr using the camera itself, ya don't. If yr using a DOF adapter, you can do it there.

regardless, it shoots hdv-- major suckage.

HDV ain't HDCAM but heck its a lot cheaper. Just like DV isn't DigiBeta.

Ya pays yer money and ya gets yer choice.

Again, HV30 is a kickass camera for the $$$