[ThePits]

Oh you mean Turkey where they just had to drop the candidate for president because he was too religious and where the army kicks the government out if it doesnt like it?

That Islamic democracy?

[Tokolosh]

There are more who are really trying.

List of Muslim democracies
Wiki

The following list indicates those countries which are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference and are either generally considered to be democratic or have substantial democratic elements in their system of government. Furthermore, the political climate in some of these countries has varied greatly in recent years, while in some of the countries there have been accusations of vote-rigging.

The percentage of Muslims in each country is sourced from CIA FactBook

Albania (Europe) (70% Muslim)
Algeria (North Africa) (99%)
Bangladesh (South Asia) (83%)
Comoros (South eastern Africa) (98%)
Indonesia (South-East Asia) (88%)
Iran (Middle-East) (98%)
Kyrgyzstan (Central Asia) (75%)
Lebanon (Middle-East) (59.7%)
Nigeria (West Africa) (50%)
Malaysia (South-East Asia) (62%)
Mali (West Africa) (90%)
Morocco (North Africa) (98.7%)
Niger (West Africa) (80%)
Senegal (West Africa) (94%)
Sierra Leone (West Africa) (60%)
Turkey (Europe / Asia) (99.8%)
Yemen (Arabian Peninsula - Asia) (+90%)

Until the recent coups d'état, Pakistan and The Gambia were also considered democracies.

Edit: I don't want to burst your bubble, but western democracy isn't perfect either.

[ThePits]

Western democracy is far from perfect
And who exactly recognises these countries as democracies?
Are you seriously stating that these are democratic countries?
Iran? Kyrgyzstan? Yemen?
The list of human rights abuses and lack of free speech in most of that list belies that fact
The codicile at the top of your list also indicates they are not democracies per se but may contain democratic elements and most of that list are guilty of vote rigging!
Also using wikipedia isnt the most reliable source
And the CIA factbook as I understand it is published by that agency well known for its accuracy over weapons of mass deustruction in Iraq
The only country there that is remotely democratic and not subject to the possibility of a military coup or control is Malaysia
Try exercising free speech in the countries on that list

[Tokolosh]

I think you can better ask the wiki source that question?
I was pulling your leg.

Ps: Information in the article or section you just read has not been verified against sources and may not be reliable.
Please check for inaccuracies and modify as needed, citing the sources against which it was checked.

[the ikara cult]

I generally think Christopher Hitchens is a fuck, but when he said that the threat of religious fundamentalist violence shouldnt influence the honours system (however pointless i feel that particular system of merit to be) i felt he was right. I havent read any Salman Rushdie books but censorship only drives debate underground where it festers and becomes something nasty.

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

I think you can better ask the wiki source that question?
I was pulling your leg.

Ps: Information in the article or section you just read has not been verified against sources and may not be reliable.
Please check for inaccuracies and modify as needed, citing the sources against which it was checked.

Good old wikipedia
Maybe the CIA should put the same disclaimer on the infromation they give out too

I agree with you Ikara, stifling debate does make things fester

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by ThePits

Good old wikipedia
Maybe the CIA should put the same disclaimer on the infromation they give out too

I agree with you Ikara, stifling debate does make things fester

I find this issue most often arises with regard to statements that i myself see as offensive. In the place i grew up there is alot of far-right activity and i actually had a close freind who was a member of an extremist organisation. The problems arise when you make people, especially young people, feel like their views are invalid. Theres a good paralell between Muslim extremists and British nationalist extremists here from what ive seen.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Originally Posted by ThePits

Oh you mean Turkey where they just had to drop the candidate for president because he was too religious and where the army kicks the government out if it doesnt like it?

That Islamic democracy?

The army are sworn to protect Ataturk's secular republic. So if some right-wing religious fanatic gets into power, it is their job to do that.

Think of it this way. . .you're head honcho of an army sworn to protect freedom and democracy, and some democratically elected leader starts jeopardizing that, what do you?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

The army are sworn to protect Ataturk's secular republic. So if some right-wing religious fanatic gets into power, it is their job to do that.

Think of it this way. . .you're head honcho of an army sworn to protect freedom and democracy, and some democratically elected leader starts jeopardizing that, what do you?

 

[o o o]

Originally Posted by ThePits

Name one Islamic democracy........

I would propose Indonesia (which is actually the largest Muslim-majority country) and Senegal.
And yes, Turkey, I guess. The army has a lot of power but they weren't able to prevent the "moderate Muslim" / "moderate Islamist" AKP to win the general elections in 2002 and to govern the country. We'll see what happens with the issue of the president: apparently Turkey's Constitutional Court has now validated AKP's latest proposed reform allowing for the president to be voted by the people rather than by the General Assembly which would open another way for AKP's candidate: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6275684.stm.

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by o o o

I would propose Indonesia (which is actually the largest Muslim-majority country) and Senegal.
And yes, Turkey, I guess. The army has a lot of power but they weren't able to prevent the "moderate Muslim" / "moderate Islamist" AKP to win the general elections in 2002 and to govern the country. We'll see what happens with the issue of the president: apparently Turkey's Constitutional Court has now validated AKP's latest proposed reform allowing for the president to be voted by the people rather than by the General Assembly which would open another way for AKP's candidate: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6275684.stm.

Indonesia got to the size it has by taking over small neighbouring islands and repopulating them with people from the core islands and asset stripping any natural resources possible
Its human rights record and vote rigging are well documented
As for Turkey, if it is such a democracy why then do the military hold sway there and why has the EU put off admitting the country for at least 10 years due to its appalling human rights record including detention without trial of political critics and ethnic cleansing of kurds
Turkeys Constitutional Court wont be worth diddly squat when the generals dissolve it as they have on the past should it push them too far
Senegal I know nothing about but I will read up on it

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

The army are sworn to protect Ataturk's secular republic. So if some right-wing religious fanatic gets into power, it is their job to do that.

Think of it this way. . .you're head honcho of an army sworn to protect freedom and democracy, and some democratically elected leader starts jeopardizing that, what do you?

Right wing religious fanatics......
Right wing military fanatics......
Decisions decisions......

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

You should go to Turkey sometime dude, it is really nice. It would probably be like Iran if the military didn't do that in 97.

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

You should go to Turkey sometime dude, it is really nice. It would probably be like Iran if the military didn't do that in 97.

It probably is a nice place, the turks and kurds I know are just regular people too

But the country is like most places, its nice to go for a holiday but would you really want to live there?

Try speaking your mind in Turkey and see how much you enjoy it

Whatever way you look at the place, its not a democracy, its as democratic as the military allow it to be

Which is a tragedy

[pokkeherrie]

Originally Posted by ThePits

Try speaking your mind in Turkey and see how much you enjoy it

this guy tried
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6279241.stm


To be fair though, whilst there may not be any real Islamic democracy like how we know democracy in the west, fact is that democracy usually goes hand in hand with welfare and there's not too much of that in most Islamic states.

I mean there's plenty of vote rigging and human rights issues going on in many of the Christian nations of South America and Africa too.

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by pokkeherrie

this guy tried
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6279241.stm


To be fair though, whilst there may not be any real Islamic democracy like how we know democracy in the west, fact is that democracy usually goes hand in hand with welfare and there's not too much of that in most Islamic states.

I mean there's plenty of vote rigging and human rights issues going on in many of the Christian nations of South America and Africa too.

I agree with you

To be fair though many mosques do care for the elderly and those in need from what I have seen in the UK

I still think there is an issue with Islam being compatible with a democracy, Islam brooks no scrutiny and certainly no criticism unlike any other religion, and that in itself breaches the basic tenet of a democracy, the right to free speech

[pokkeherrie]

Originally Posted by ThePits

Islam brooks no scrutiny and certainly no criticism unlike any other religion, and that in itself breaches the basic tenet of a democracy, the right to free speech

Unfortunately that's been proven a very valid point again and again. And again. Within 5 seconds I can think of Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses", the cartoons in that Danish newspaper, Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali's "Submission".... do we see a pattern here?

Then compare it with how for instance "The Life of Brian" was received.
I don't know what it is... maybe something about defending it with the sword.

[ThePits]

Maybe I am way off the mark here, but Islam came into existence 6 - 700 years after Christianity

Think back to how Christianity was 6 - 700 years ago

Anyone who disagreed with the church was subject to the inquisition, put to the question and executed

Maybe Islam as a religion is at the same evolutionary phase in its development

Total intolerance of any differing opinion or criticism