[demonrail666]

I think you're right in that it is often that very ability to contextualise something that gives it its value/meaning. I certainly wasn't referring to some kind of abstract aesthetic value which remains, for me at least, ultimately undefinable.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

Being able to value one's work is not necessarily something that is going to give or take that work of art any obejective value. The role of a music critic should be more that of being a diffuser and contextualiser of music, at least in the contest of popular music of the last 5/6 decades.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sarramkrop again.


I fully agree

If anything, I generally think that the problem lies more in how you get an overcrowded boat of amateurish critics/musicians, which in total outnumber the genuine articles out there to the point of making them look like a tiny crowd.

[demonrail666]

If anything, I just think we should leave those that care about such blogs to carry on being swayed by them. If a band like Black Kids become famous as a result of people reading about them on such sites, then good luck to them. If they make lots of money on the strength of it, then better still. It doesn't impact on my life in any way. Unlike the bastard next door whose just decided to start drilling into my wall, making my vision blur as i type this.

Is he on K? Apparently it can have that effect on people, you know, turning them into paranoid schizos who think that their neighbours are coppers.

Black Kids were on that ''Freshly Squeezed'' morning tv program presented by the lovely Alexa Chung, and they sound exactly like a rip off of The Go! Team without any hummable tunes.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

relativism has pervaded our life

My observation is that relativism only pervades your life if you want it to; shit music only pervades your life if you want it to. 'Relativism' is, strangely enough, a bit of an empty term in and of itself; contingently, it's a good thing sometimes, a bad thing others. I personally bemoan, in myself and projected out on the world, a lack of critical faculties. I think people intuitively understand art; the problem comes with articulation, which nearly always appeals to ration (but generally is an expression of emotion and other entirely personal qualities).

I also have a great deal of personal disdain for art-as-identity - 'I listen to group x which is opposed to group y or type of music z, which reflects upon myself positively'. We all do it, and I hate when I notice myself doing it.

Disclaimer: the above is a rambling load of nonsense that is directed no-where particular.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

IGlice posted up a series of different versions of the same pieces of music. While I could tell the difference, I didn't have the education to properly say which was superior.

You've raised the problem that the vernacular haunting art is always aligned with a heirarchical worst > best; I think where you say 'I don't have the education' all I hear is 'I feel intimidated to talk about something I enjoy'. I don't mean this as any offence to yourself, in the slightest. But a lot of people feel alienated from certain sorts of music precisely because they feel they lack the critical faculties to describe it in the lineage 'good> best'. Again, this is as much a criticism of myself as anything else.

On the other hand, if you describe art purely in adjectives then no-one is interested, and there's no bleeding human behind it.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Glice

You've raised the problem that the vernacular haunting art is always aligned with a heirarchical worst > best; I think where you say 'I don't have the education' all I hear is 'I feel intimidated to talk about something I enjoy'. I don't mean this as any offence to yourself, in the slightest. But a lot of people feel alienated from certain sorts of music precisely because they feel they lack the critical faculties to describe it in the lineage 'good> best'. Again, this is as much a criticism of myself as anything else.

On the other hand, if you describe art purely in adjectives then no-one is interested, and there's no bleeding human behind it.

When refering to the lack of education, I wasn't thinking of it in the sense of being intimidated. Although you might possibly be right. It was more just highlighting a common problem when faced with something you have little or no background in. This I suppose could be a form of intimidation, albeit a nice one - not that of being surrounded by a load of fundamentalists in a dark alley in Stepney.

Saying all that, I'm constantly fascinated by the rise of radio stations like Classic FM, which seems to transmit way beneath the radar of intimidation, appealing to an audience that I imagine has no formal background in that type of music. In so-doing it offers classical music as a mixture of wallpaper for the accompaniment of performing household chores, and an appeal to a certain type of person's liking for the idea of 'high culture'. It provides the comfort of associating oneself with an elite, complex form, but demands nothing in terms of understanding or even engaging with that complexity. The result, of course, is the enormous popularity of an artist like Einaudi - Richard Clayderman for people who dream about Schoenberg.

Unfortunately, what we have today is, I believe, a culture that provides the rather hollow pleasure of access, without the real pleasure of understanding.

EDIT: I'd like to second Glice's disclaimer above, that everything I've contributed so far in this thread is a load of rambling, pseudo intellectual nonsense, of which I would stand by maybe 25% - if I'm feeling generous to myself. Anyone thinking of commenting on, or taking issue with, any of it should bear this in mind.

[PAULYBEE2656]

interesting thread.. my opinion on this is that music blogs allow the distribution (legal or otherwise... thats not the point here) of music to the interweb consumer / user at such a huge degree that overkill will happen..... same as daytime radio can still overkill a song to death. its up to the consumer to get sucked in or not. its up to the consumer to take part or not and ultimatly its up to the consumer to like or dislike....

years back when we had things like cassette players, you heard a great record off your mates brothers stereo, you stuck in a c90 and away you went, you stuck in another c90 and gave it to someone else.. now you simply right click paste and send to millions.......

consumers have it too easy...... there isnt the joy of discovering new music anymore to the masses... there is to me personally but then again.. i dont get fooled easily and i dont think that many of us reading this do either....

ataris first post is a classic!

[Glice]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Unfortunately, what we have today is, I believe, a culture that provides the rather hollow pleasure of access, without the real pleasure of understanding.

Oh, Classic FM is deplorable. They won't play anything too long, they rarely venture outside of the classical era (except the ocassional dalliance with Bach) and they have a habit of playing the 'lush' recordings.

This notion of the real sort of irks me. I'm sure it just flew off your keyboard, you seem a very considered chap. But it's the notion of fidelity, the idea that some art is 'real' and some art is 'fake'. I've had conversations with people who were dyed-in-the-wool Warholites telling me that dance music wasn't 'real' because they don't play 'real' instruments.

Ultimately, again, whatever floats a person's boat is no business of mine, so long as the aforementioned floating doesn't interfere with the rather fine bobbing I do.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Glice

This notion of the real sort of irks me. I'm sure it just flew off your keyboard, you seem a very considered chap. But it's the notion of fidelity, the idea that some art is 'real' and some art is 'fake'. I've had conversations with people who were dyed-in-the-wool Warholites telling me that dance music wasn't 'real' because they don't play 'real' instruments.

Well ... I ... God ... this thread has produced more crap from my keyboard than I can remember in a helluva long time. Seriously, I read back my posts here and found myself cringing constantly. I hardly believe any of this shit whatsoever. This is what happens when you have a dose of the shits so you can't go out, there's fuck all to do indoors beyond listen to Talksport on the wireless and so you just smoke some weed and start posting crap to kill time.

The only truthfull thing I could possibly say right now is that Kate Garraway gives me the horn in a major way. Everything else is just bollocks.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

Sonic Youth got where they are not because of ''slow hype'', they got there because quality was a priority for them as a band since they started.

And I'm saying there might be a band out there that has sought quality from the beginning but were cut short because they were put into the "here today, gone tomorrow" bin. Overcoming high expectations is a hard thing.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

The whole 'if you like it, then fine' syndrome, which allows someone to say that they believe Tarantino to be a better film-maker than, say, Godard. The correct response to this should be, you are absolutely wrong, but instead they're usually reassured by the aforementioned mantra of 'if you like it, then fine'.

Yeah, but if someone were to say that it would most likely be because they mean to say that they prefer tarantino to godard.

anyway, what is everyone talking about some halcyon era of criticism where all and sundry had the faculties and learning to offer insight into whatever cultural artifact they set eyes upon?

i agree with glice about the intimidation & articulacy stuff.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by pbradley

And I'm saying there might be a band out there that has sought quality from the beginning but were cut short because they were put into the "here today, gone tomorrow" bin. Overcoming high expectations is a hard thing.

if sonic youth came out in today's climate they wouldn't be put in to that bin, they would be toiling away in obscurity just as they did in the early 80s. the bands that get put into that faddish category are generally there because they want to be.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

i agree with glice about the intimidation & articulacy stuff.

What an absolutely perfect sentence.