[gualbert]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

yes, that is exactly my point, it can be useful, but I think your implication was that the religion of christianity stole its use, rather than coincided with.

Yes, that's what I meant: christianity appropriate itself the winter solsitce, and claims it as its own.

As I said before, my birthday often falls on the celebration of MLK's birthday, but am I borrowing or stealing from the good Dr King?

I'm not aware of that tradition.
MLK is born in the 20th century, so I guess his birthday is known with no doubt.
So is it like Easter, not the same day every year?

12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." (John 8:12)

Alright.

[acousticrock87]

Technically Jesus was born during a census, and no one would have called a census in December. So he was most likely not born on Christmas or anywhere near it.

But holidays are borrowed and stolen for whatever reason. Christianity [might have] borrowed solstice, and consumerism borrowed Christmas.

Who cares when? Celebrations evolve, but it's not like Pagans can't celebrate solstice because it's been overrun, or Chrisitans are no longer able to celebrate Jesus' birth because it's been corrupted. We are capable of celebrating whatever the fuck we want, when we want. At the same time.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by gualbert

I'm not aware of that tradition.
MLK is born in the 20th century, so I guess his birthday is known with no doubt.
So is it like Easter, not the same day every year?

no, MLK's birthday celebration does not fall on his actual birthday, but the appropriate following monday, which is how my birthday often coincides with the holiday.

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

Technically Jesus was born during a census, and no one would have called a census in December. So he was most likely not born on Christmas or anywhere near it.

But holidays are borrowed and stolen for whatever reason. Christianity [might have] borrowed solstice, and consumerism borrowed Christmas.

Who cares when? Celebrations evolve, but it's not like Pagans can't celebrate solstice because it's been overrun, or Chrisitans are no longer able to celebrate Jesus' birth because it's been corrupted. We are capable of celebrating whatever the fuck we want, when we want. At the same time.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to acousticrock87 again.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by _slavo_

since Christmas Eve was my mom's birthday and since my mom had passed away two years ago, I've grown up to hate this period of the year.

holy shit slavo, i just caught that post-- so very sorry.

i hope you're ok this year.

[mangajunky]

Isn't it against the tenets of the real Christian faith to celebrate the birthday of anyone regardless? In fact, the only New Testament mention of a birthday that I can think of was Herod's...and he ordered the beheading of John the Baptist on that one.

[Rob Instigator]

 

[mangajunky]

cock and balls?

[pbradley]

Christmas is perhaps my favorite holiday mostly for the chance to read a book by the fireplace.

[terriblecanyons]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

 

Probably the most intelligent post in this entire thread.

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by mangajunky

Isn't it against the tenets of the real Christian faith to celebrate the birthday of anyone regardless? In fact, the only New Testament mention of a birthday that I can think of was Herod's...and he ordered the beheading of John the Baptist on that one.

They just didn't at first because Jews didn't.

Originally Posted by terriblecanyons

Probably the most intelligent post in this entire thread.

Not true. You forgot:

Originally Posted by terriblecanyons

i liek pancaeks

[terriblecanyons]

Hahaha. I must agree, my "i liek pancaeks" post was rather intelligent and relevant.

[Dead-Air]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

yes, that is exactly my point, it can be useful, but I think your implication was that the religion of christianity stole its use, rather than coincided with. As I said before, my birthday often falls on the celebration of MLK's birthday, but am I borrowing or stealing from the good Dr King?

I agree there is no reason not for both Christmas and the solstice to fall around the same time of year. However, the early Christian church did set Christmas at the time of the pagan holiday specifically because it made it easier to convert people if the holidays seemed essentially the same. If you read the Golden Bough, it's rather interesting what the origins of the Christmas tree were - it was actually a tree used in sacrifices that was set on fire with people in it!

So, for your analogy to be valid, you would have to actually be born some other time of year, then look at Dr. King's birthday and say, "Wow, a whole lot of people are celebrating on this here Monday in January, maybe I'll move my birthday to then!" And then you'd have to make special calendars for your friends and family that replaced MLK Day with your birthday. Assuming they never talked to anyone else about it, they'd all think you were the reason the mail didn't get delivered and the banks were closed, and that you must be a pretty important dude.

[_slavo_]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

holy shit slavo, i just caught that post-- so very sorry.

i hope you're ok this year.

thanks dude, you're nice.
i hope it's gonna be ok tomorrow.
i had too many pear brandy shots tonight, i'm off to sleep now.

[fugazifan]

my class is going to a midnight mass tonight at a place that sings the gregorian chants, im pretty excited. hope they wont look at us strangely (us being the killers of the birthday boy and all)

[Moshe]

Originally Posted by fugazifan

(us being the killers of the birthday boy and all)

LOL!

[jon boy]

well its a white christmas here, over a foot of the stuff. ho ho ho.

[jon boy]

 

[Derek]

"Breaking News: Santa Suspended For 'Ho' Comment"

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Dead-Air

I agree there is no reason not for both Christmas and the solstice to fall around the same time of year. However, the early Christian church did set Christmas at the time of the pagan holiday specifically because it made it easier to convert people if the holidays seemed essentially the same. If you read the Golden Bough, it's rather interesting what the origins of the Christmas tree were - it was actually a tree used in sacrifices that was set on fire with people in it!

Yes and no. The Roman celebrations of Christmas most definitely coincide with so-called pagan celebrations, particularly that of the cults of Mithras, also to specifically aid in the conversion of the masses of soldiers and military men who were devotees of Mithras, however, this was all occurring in the fourth century.

The celebration of Christmas itself, though not around the solstice, was celebrated in Alexandria and Syria, the origins of Christianity, as early as the end of the first century. It was at the first great Eccumenical Council that the entire church of ALL Bishops, eastern and western, African, Asian and European, met together to codify the Church. Here at the Council of Nicaea, the universal celebration of Christmas at the Solstice was established, and the Eastern churches set the dates on their calendar to coincide (in Ethiopia the 29 of Tahisas is December 25 of the old Julian calendar and in Egypt the 29 of Tankah). This is so permanently accepted, that the Orthodox communion did not switch like Rome to the Gregorian calendar, and so Orthodox Christmas is on January 7, (the 29 of Tahisas) and correlate to the original christmas, and are now removed from the actual solstice date.

I think it is safe to infer that the Eastern churches and bishops all accepted the December 25, not just because it coincided with Mithrasism which only benefited Rome, but also themselves, in codifying a universal date to celebrate the birth together, as ONE, solitary Church. If these bishops accepted the date, there must be more too it than Roman desires to convert Mithras military cults, because this was not the same circumstances in other Christian realms. Because everyone accepted this date, it is safe to assume it has more Christian elements to it than just Rome's great conversion plan..

accepting Christmas as being on December 25 ONLY as a result of competition with Mithras is rather Euro-centric and western biased, there are nearly a billion Christians who have nothing to do with Rome at all!

It does mean nothing, but if you take the time to think that abject negativity means even less, you might get to see the positive things, not just the negative ones.