[Rob Instigator]

I must be the only one that saw o'rourke as DILUTING the sonic youth "sound".

[EVOLghost]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I must be the only one that saw o'rourke as DILUTING the sonic youth "sound".

Yes. You are. Shame on you.

[Toilet & Bowels]

No I agree, plus if Jim O'Rourke hadn't joined Thurston Moore would never have started banging his girlfriend

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I must be the only one that saw o'rourke as DILUTING the sonic youth "sound".

Meh. Jim ENHANCED that sound. He came in in 1997/98 and was in my opinion part of the genesis of A Thousand Leaves/NYC Ghosts and Flowers/Murray Street/Nurse which all have a similar sound. Those albums are more free-associative and jammy than other things. I think Jim was as important a shift in direction and evolution as was bringing in Steve. While I actually really like RR (especially live, those were some great shows) and The Eternal, it is clear that the band wasn't quite sure which direction to go without him, those albums sounded like a Washing Machine era revival, which I think perfectly reflects how much Jim changed the sound.

The catch is its very different music than the 80s/90s Sonic Youth. If THAT era is what you dig, like a lot of folks here, than the Jim era is a let down or distraction. Me? I think the that 1998-2005 is the ZENITH! Its like they combined Day Dream Nation and Washing Machine and then let it sit around and play guitar on mushrooms..

[dasx]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Meh. Jim ENHANCED that sound. He came in in 1997/98 and was in my opinion part of the genesis of A Thousand Leaves/NYC Ghosts and Flowers/Murray Street/Nurse which all have a similar sound. Those albums are more free-associative and jammy than other things. I think Jim was as important a shift in direction and evolution as was bringing in Steve. While I actually really like RR (especially live, those were some great shows) and The Eternal, it is clear that the band wasn't quite sure which direction to go without him, those albums sounded like a Washing Machine era revival, which I think perfectly reflects how much Jim changed the sound.

The catch is its very different music than the 80s/90s Sonic Youth. If THAT era is what you dig, like a lot of folks here, than the Jim era is a let down or distraction. Me? I think the that 1998-2005 is the ZENITH! Its like they combined Day Dream Nation and Washing Machine and then let it sit around and play guitar on mushrooms..

I like both, 80's era Sonic Youth and Jim era. In fact I like almost everything they've done.

[zelocia]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

it is clear that the band wasn't quite sure which direction to go without him

This is what I meant but I couldn't have said it better myself.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Sonic Youth the EP isn't any better than Rather Ripped to be honest.

It's all just opinion but I love that first EP. It's not the best thing they ever did but it does include a couple of my fave SY songs. There's a definite energy to it, as well as being, for me, anyway, their most flat out 'urban' sounding record - even compared with DDN. There's a clubby feel to a lot of it, similar in some ways to Talking Heads or PIL. I just don't hear anything in Rather Ripped at all.

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I must be the only one that saw o'rourke as DILUTING the sonic youth "sound".

I always had mixed feelings about his involvement, so I kind of get what you mean. I loved (and still love) SYR 3. But NYCG&F and Murray Street never did that much for me, and those were two consecutive albums, so I was starting to get down about their sound at that time. Some of the laptop stuff on NYCG&F rubbed me wrong, and I especially didn't like seeing it on stage. (He did have the laptop on stage, didn't he?)

But then Sonic Nurse kicked some serious ass, and I peed right next to Jim at a Maxwell's show, so that was all good.

When he left, I was glad. Overall, I think his involvement was good, and it added a unique chapter to SY's history, but I'm glad it was just a short phase.

I never realized until reading the post above (or maybe I forgot) that he had anything to do with A Thousand Leaves, which is a great record. If he had significant influence on that record, then that's another plus.

[themawt71]

no jim didn't have anything to do with a thousand leaves.

also i think jim came in a little late in the making of nyc g f whereas with only murray st and sonic nurse he was a full integrated member.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Blue Human

I would suggest that the period '95 - '05 is their finest era. Washing Machine to Sonic Nurse (including SYR's, Made in USA etc & solo projects) is the longest unbroken run of consistent quality in their catalogue. That hot streak predates O'Rouke's involvement but I'm sure his input helped sustain it.

I would also agree that there are varying degrees of mediocrity/less strong material across most of their output. There are no poor albums as such - just albums where the quality/mediocrity ratio is more clearly pronounced.

A little detail about this opinion: Made In Usa is recorded in 85-86, but released -95. And naturally it sounds more EVOL-Sister era than nineties.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by themawt71

no jim didn't have anything to do with a thousand leaves.

also i think jim came in a little late in the making of nyc g f whereas with only murray st and sonic nurse he was a full integrated member.

Also little details about this: they made SYR3 before ATL with Jim. Even Jim wasn´t with ATL, I think SY got influences from him already. Also Jim´s credited a producer to NYC Ghosts.

[Blue Human]

A little detail about this opinion: Made In Usa is recorded in 85-86, but released -95. And naturally it sounds more EVOL-Sister era than nineties.

Sorry if this reads as sloppy or unclear.
I'm purely stating that in terms of what the band released during this time, this is the period I view to be the most consistent. I'm not passing comment on when something was written or minted, or a sound aesthetic from a period.

If I thought, for example, that '06 - now was the hot streak, I'd be including Smart Bar in there, despite it (clearly) being from another time/differing sound. Some of Psychic Hearts was recorded in '94 but I'd included that in '95 - '05. Melbourne Direct was recorded '04 but released '06 so its out as RR breaks the streak.

I simply meant that everything released during '95-'05, to me, was golden. Every time something "new" appeared on the shelves it was of a high caliber. As much as I rate all of their output, I've always been underwhelmed by something which has broken the spell (Into the Groovey anyone?). But for that decade, they seemed untouchable.

[dasx]

Originally Posted by Blue Human

Sorry if this reads as sloppy or unclear.
I'm purely stating that in terms of what the band released during this time, this is the period I view to be the most consistent. I'm not passing comment on when something was written or minted, or a sound aesthetic from a period.

If I thought, for example, that '06 - now was the hot streak, I'd be including Smart Bar in there, despite it (clearly) being from another time/differing sound. Some of Psychic Hearts was recorded in '94 but I'd included that in '95 - '05. Melbourne Direct was recorded '04 but released '06 so its out as RR breaks the streak.

I simply meant that everything released during '95-'05, to me, was golden. Every time something "new" appeared on the shelves it was of a high caliber. As much as I rate all of their output, I've always been underwhelmed by something which has broken the spell (Into the Groovey anyone?). But for that decade, they seemed untouchable.

I count Made In USA to late 80's era, 'cause that's when it was recorded (just like in jazz, for example in Coltrane discography all albums are organized by recording date, not by release date) and also to me Melbourne Direct is part of O'Rourke era.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Blue Human

Sorry if this reads as sloppy or unclear.
I'm purely stating that in terms of what the band released during this time, this is the period I view to be the most consistent. I'm not passing comment on when something was written or minted, or a sound aesthetic from a period.

If I thought, for example, that '06 - now was the hot streak, I'd be including Smart Bar in there, despite it (clearly) being from another time/differing sound. Some of Psychic Hearts was recorded in '94 but I'd included that in '95 - '05. Melbourne Direct was recorded '04 but released '06 so its out as RR breaks the streak.

I simply meant that everything released during '95-'05, to me, was golden. Every time something "new" appeared on the shelves it was of a high caliber. As much as I rate all of their output, I've always been underwhelmed by something which has broken the spell (Into the Groovey anyone?). But for that decade, they seemed untouchable.

Point in my later reply is that are you saying EVOL & Sister era (or the eighties) are not as great as the nineties? I can´t understand if you´re saying Made In Usa great, why isn´t EVOL & Sister, because in my mind those three albums are very close together. Also Smart Bar has lots of same feelings & sounds.

[Blue Human]

Point in my later reply is that are you saying EVOL & Sister era (or the eighties) are not as great as the nineties? I can´t understand if you´re saying Made In Usa great, why isn´t EVOL & Sister, because in my mind those three albums are very close together. Also Smart Bar has lots of same feelings & sounds

.

I think BMR - DDN is also a period of exceptional quality, I love those records. However - experienced in real time (i.e. as those releases came out) you get Into the Groovey (which I'm not keen on) which spoils the consecutive run of top releases.

I count Made In USA to late 80's era, 'cause that's when it was recorded (just like in jazz, for example in Coltrane discography all albums are organized by recording date, not by release date) and also to me Melbourne Direct is part of O'Rourke era.

Ok, but i"m NOT talking about eras. I totally concur that Melbourne is O'Rourke era. I was just drawing an arbitrary boundary around a series of releases which, in real time, I was consistently impressed with. If you'd experienced Tranes releases as they came out, you'd have got Coltranes Sound & Ascension released within a year of each other. Stylistically from very different eras, both good records, recorded 5 years and several stylistic changes apart. This could still be viewed as a run of releases. A massive reason why jazz discogs are viewed by session date is the very common practice of labels releasing sides from previous sessions once an artist has moved to another label, maybe capitalising on said artists current popularity (Miles' Workin' Cookin' Steamin' Relaxin' being classic examples as Columbia essentially did all the marketing leg work for Prestige).

If the slew of archival releases everyone is hoping for do eventually surface, this chronological by session approach my be the best way to view SY's catalogue in future, especially by those who didn't experience the band at the time. But, as an uniformed 15 year old in '95, I got WM & Made in USA in the same year, and enjoyed them both - experienced in real time.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Blue Human

.I think BMR - DDN is also a period of exceptional quality, I love those records. However - experienced in real time (i.e. as those releases came out) you get Into the Groovey (which I'm not keen on) which spoils the consecutive run of top releases.

Well, I think Ciccone Youth is not meant to be taken totally serious, I think it was kind of "therapy"-project of SY and they just wanted to have some fun and played with samplers. But on the other hand, I really love Whitey Album, there are some very great tunes like G-force, Macbeth. I really also like Into the Groovey, although I´m not big Madonna-fan. I think CY made it much better than Madonna!

To me there are no "golden" periods. I think the Sy Golden time started in EVOL and not ended since. Of course I love also those first three albums, but I think it was their searching time and they found their true "self" in EVOL. EVOL, Sister, Washing Machine & ATL are only masterpieces, BMR is not masterpiece to me (as it is to some others).

[zelocia]

In my personal opinion, I think that they did have a time period of unprecedented greatness. That time period, for me, is EVOL to Dirty (including Ciccone Youth). The only other time in the band's career that comes close to the this period is the O'Rourke era (NYCG&F to Sonic Nurse). All albums before, between, and after those periods I have mixed feelings about. I always take their albums for what they are not what they're not but in terms of quality, nothing can touch 1986 - 1992 and to a lesser extent, 2000 - 2004.