[demonrail666]

There's a discussion on the radio at the moment about links between a rise in violent street crime in the UK and Grime culture - no different really to the debate about links between gang related crime and Hip Hop in the US.

It's the usual 'no, the music just reflects the problem' versus 'but it also legitimises it' argument.

I'm finding the yes/no nature of the debate a bit too simplistic. Where do you stand?

[Toilet & Bowels]

that debate is really idiotic. what concerns me more at the moment is that every time i tune into rinse these days they are playing fucking garage!

[sonicl]

The only link between the two is that grime happens to be a popular music of choice among gangs.

[demonrail666]

I just wish the artists who speak in defence of what they do could create a better argument than the usual, 'we're just telling people what's happening in the 'hood' schtick. Surely 90% of the people who listen to it already have some idea of what's happening there, seeing as they live in it.

[atari 2600]

I support ousting those in government from the top executive levels all the way down to the corrupt cop on the beat that allow gangs to exist.

I fully support the systematic obliteration of all "old world" feudalistic criminal organizations operating within the borders of the United States of America and urge a dismantling of the power structure that allows it to occur. And i don't mean all the public officials that have their hands-tied and are caught in-the-middle by the true power elite. My call is to urge the removal somehow of any of those in power that are found guilty of jeopardizing public safety for their own financial benefit at the expense of a serious threat to the taxpaying citizens and the representorial electorate of the United States of America.
For instance, if a senator has a "political view" (more like gun lobby view) that public gun shows are fine, then they should be removed from office.
And, if they resist being removed, then they should be prosecuted criminally. The amount of firearms that have been, are now being, and will be produced is out-of-control.
The Second Amendment is long overdue for some restrictive clauses, people. Let's be civilized, America.

The fact that gangs haven't been eliminated in the U.S. is reprehensible. The fact that people allow themselves into being brainwashed into a war in the Middle East over fabricated safety reasons when gangs are allowed to exist is ridiculous...when there are no restrictions really for buying and selling at gun shows...ditto for tractor trailers on the same interstate highways as passenger vehicles, but these are, for now, side issues.

JFK and his clan came from the gangster background. His father, Joe, and his Prohibition-era stranglehold is as about as OG as it gets. Which is probably the only reason why an Irish Catholic won the presidency (see also Daley's Chicago election tampering).
RFK later sought to end all organized crime and did a good deal to begin that process before he was (also) assassinated. It was his recompense.

In recent history, from the presidency of Ronald Reagan onwards, cocaine is the big black budget product and as a result, there are gangs all over the United States of America that distribute it.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I'm finding the yes/no nature of the debate a bit too simplistic. Where do you stand?

As far as the music goes, it's music. I say leave it alone.
Other than that, people should collectively stop being in love with their own whining so much (yeah, radio talk shows are the worst), take some deep breaths, actually think about what really is happening, and take action accordingly.

[atari 2600]

As for the UK and this "Grime" connection, I don't live there, and I have no idea. Whatever gangs exist in England must exist for a reason...as in illegal products or services they are pushing. I say think that out and see where it takes you.

I would guess it's more random and less-organized in nature than gangs in the U.S. I will also guess that most street crime in England is due to junkies desperately needing money.

Then again, maybe an ineffectual police response to junkie-crime has now emboldened non-junkies to commit the same types of crimes in sprees and these are the new, more organized "gangs;" it's a possibility.

[Toilet & Bowels]

gang culture is quite a new phenomenon in the uk (as is gun crime), and having not grown up in an area that has any kind of gang culture i'm not really sure how it works here, i have a better idea about american gang culture than british.

[SynthethicalY]

I think it might be the same, t&b. Poverty increases crimes, not like you already knew that. But I don't think music can have an effect in crime, that is just rubbish.

[atari 2600]

Poverty contributes to one feeling worthless and ripped-off and used-up by society. It can and sometimes does lead to domestic crime, including murder(s).

Poverty also makes for a poor environment to raise one's kids. They are far too often engendered with an "us and them" criminal mentality from an early age, and too many become involved in drugs or gangs. Many have been profiled out or zoned out of a good job or living area. Many may have records due to an early mistake and have become disenfranchised and "caught up in the system."

Poverty does contribute to desperation and desperation lends itself to sociopathy which eventually leads to criminal activity and possible psychopathy.

But, most poor people, the overwhelming majority, and it is true the world over, while they may not always be as well-educated, are very noble and good people and they are in no way criminals at all, nor do they support criminal activity.

[Toilet & Bowels]

poverty has existed in this country since the dawn of time, i can't beieve that is why gangs are supposedly on the rise here

[terminal pharmacy]

No-one knows...
What it's like...
To be a dustbin...
In Shaftsbury...
With hooligans..........

[NWRA]

I think grime/rap music (they may as well be the same thing for this argument) does influence the behaviour of many listeners. I mean, have you seen the way youths who listen to gangster rap tend to use gangster rap slang (even when its laughably inappropriate)? or the way they dress in the same clothes as their favourite rappers (even if they look ludicrous)? Surely this is an example of being influenced by the music/performers (albeit harmlessly)?

Now I'm not saying that a gentle, pleasant human is likely to listen to NWA and suddenly become a ruthless gangbanger; yet the music could make him more aggressive (i.e., shout at his parents more), thrust his shoulders in an exaggerated manner when he walks, and have an obsession with being 'respected' (this is all, if he doesn't have the brains to listen to the lyrics with a sense of detachment, like we do because we're mint). .

Let's face it, most young people (not SY fans) are idiots. Look at the majority of your classmates if you're in school, or look at them on the street if you're not: they're impressionable mongs, who will copy anyone they deem 'cool' (and their critera for what is cool is fairly strange; with gangster rap, its usually anyone who scowls a lot and hates women). It’s not only grime/rap music though. Loads of idiots from the local collage are wearing neckerchiefs and frilly clothes, to look like the The Horrors or Russell Brand or someone...

Music is influenced by what's already there in the first place and not the other way round. To say that a certain type of music acerbates crime is a little dumb and unrealistic. The fact that grime happens to be the soundtrack to a robbery is not because the music is telling someone to rob a bank, the crime was going to happen anyway.

[the ikara cult]

Charles Manson was influenced by The White Album wasnt he?

I thought the thread was about widespread street crime that is supposedly influenced by a style of music and not about isolated acts of murder by nutcases, who, in any case, were damaged goods to start with, Beatles or not Beatles. If someone was to make a valid point of the whole thing, they'd surely provide better education and social conditions for the gangsters in question. I doubt that if you lived in better conditions and had a crumb of hope left in you, you'd feel like commiting crimes.

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

Charles Manson was influenced by The White Album wasnt he?

...being a child of the state as an orphan and repeat offender might have had something to so with his psychosis as well...or just maybe Charlie was a bit under the influence of being completely burned-out by mass quantities of way-too-powerful LSD...just some thoughts

[demonrail666]

I think that saying it's a root cause is highly simplistic. But equally, to say that, almost by definition, it has no link at all surely renders any cultural form impotent - whether for the power of bad, or good.

A group like Public Enemy would also claim that they were reflecting the issues of a certain community, but I doubt if they'd have bothered to release a single record if they thought that what they did would have absolutely no effect on that community. That it did, (even in the smallest and ultimately short-lived of ways) surely proves that music CAN have an impact on the communities it claims to represent.

Sure, but do you not think that in the big scheme of things, Public Enemy ultimately had a very tiny influence on the conditions of millions of African-Americans? I mean, it's not something i'm making up myself, you can witness it in reality and to its horrifying extent. If music was that much of a consistent and reliable influence on social conditions and changes, i'd be the first person to embrace it. The reality is much gloomier than that.

[demonrail666]

I did say that a group like Public Enemy had only the minimum of influence, and that that influence was ultimately shortlived. But even so, the fact that it did have SOME influence surely makes any claims that a music like Grime can have none at all, quite problematic.

It's the domino effect that creates a condition where the music is also to be blamed for the crime, but i strongly believe that it isn't the main and ultimate cause. There are murders that undoubtetly happen within the musical apparatus that puts out grime records, but the murders happen because there is an industry and money to be made out of it, even if in tiny quantities. That brings us back to the social conditions that influence the criminal act.