[_slavo_]

I came across this documentary movie today and, after watching it, I can honestly say it's one of the most dreadful things I've ever seen. It's even worse when you realize that behavior like that (open fascist propaganda included raised right hand greetings, denial of holocaust, etc erc) is silently tolerated, even with a discreet approval of the government.

http://current.com/items/84906361_from_russia_with_hate

In moments like that I'm pretty happy to live in a country like I do.

[✌➬]

Well racism will always be there.

[luisxvi]

Its quite prominent in Poland as well. Of all the places eh.

[✌➬]

I think the more disenfranchised people become the more racism pops up.

[Danny Himself]

Fucking commies!

They're so behind the times, arent they?

[Rob Instigator]

I can't stand that ignorant shit. It amkes me sick.

backwards idiots, preaching their regressive , juvenile, ignorant beliefs

[demonrail666]

I just watched the whole video. That is seriously depressing.

[_slavo_]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I can't stand that ignorant shit. It amkes me sick.

backwards idiots, preaching their regressive , juvenile, ignorant beliefs

the saddest fact is, indeed the one, that it were the nazis who intedned to extinguish all the slavic nations, Russians included, during the WWII.

[Glice]

I'm not an expert on Russia. I spent a fortnight there nearly 10 years ago. I will say that it seems that whatever you do to Russia, they'll be harsh fuckers. The aggression against foreigners is different to the 'bourgeouis' anger of Norwegian church-burners... that's always directed at symbols of repression, ultimately it's a rich country. Russia isn't. I wouldn't defend Nazis, for any reason, but I have more exasperation where it's an endemic of despair that permeates a lot of the country (hence the wonderful art they produce). Ultimately, masses of people in Russia live in poverty, and poor countries tend to regress into scapegoating (we're all familiar with this notion, I'm sure). It doesn't strike me as much more than a trickle-down violence that springs from the government.

Just as an aside - I don't wish to suggest that the national Russian character is one of hatred and despair; I've never met a Russian that wasn't lovely. But there's a large degree of...something or other... as a subcurrent...

Drifting into incoherency.

[fugazifan]

wow, pretty fucked up. especially the end

[demonrail666]

Yeah, the interview with the guy that made the videos. He was one cold-hearted motherfucker.

[MellySingsDoom]

I get the idea that "Russian Nazi-ism" is really a cover for a resurgence of a particularly unpleasant strain of Russian nationalism, in a weird way. Seeing as these fuckwads are wildly racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic etc, I guess it's "natural" for them to go towards National Socialism as a blind groping for something relevant to them. A situation that has totally been used by the Yeltsin/Putin administrations to re-inforce their "Slavic pride" agenda.

[Rob Instigator]

It's Is Always Just Losers Blaming Their Problems On Others Instead Of Looking Within Themselves.

[MellySingsDoom]

"You must spread some more 1,000,000,000 per cent proof Russian vodka around before going to Red Squre with Rob Instigator again."

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

It's Is Always Just Losers Blaming Their Problems On Others Instead Of Looking Within Themselves.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Yeah, the interview with the guy that made the videos. He was one cold-hearted motherfucker.

Originally Posted by MellySingsDoom

I get the idea that "Russian Nazi-ism" is really a cover for a resurgence of a particularly unpleasant strain of Russian nationalism, in a weird way. Seeing as these fuckwads are wildly racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic etc, I guess it's "natural" for them to go towards National Socialism as a blind groping for something relevant to them. A situation that has totally been used by the Yeltsin/Putin administrations to re-inforce their "Slavic pride" agenda.

I didn't see any evidence of 'anti-semitism' in the film. Ashkenazi Jews aren't from far away from Russia (but then again, they do mention the caucasus, which probably means former Yugoslav people rather than Jews). Not to be contentious, but it concerns me that 'racism' is bundled into one convenient box - that is, those who are against 'racism' assume that 'racism' means a single thing. Sadly, it's much more complicated than that. But you all know that, I shan't patronise any further.

Anyway. I was going to say that, by creating an absolute 'other' of the racist, that is, to subjugate the 'other' of the racist is potentially dangerous; you see all those people who aren't joining in the beatings but aren't stopping them? They're either complicit or in fear; in fact, both. "I'm ok in my ivory towers - I don't even know any racists, or the ones I do know are pretty benign".

I don't see these people as inhuman; I see them as unfortunate. I'd like to think in times of desparation I'd not turn the way these people have; I can't preclude it absolutely. The question I'm asking - are these people, these racists - are they consequences, or causes? If you think the latter then... well, I dis-agree quite strongly.

Appeals to national identity will always curry a certain amount of favour in times of poverty; the rampant alcoholism, the impossible property market, the largely back-breaking labour, the absolutely piss-difficult winters, the massive disparity between rich and poor make the Russian 'Nazi' problem not the same as when dilletante-ish 'Westerners' become hard-nationalists - that's (in many but by no means all cases) an intellectual decision, a rejection of social norms, a conscious decision... these are just young men, doing what young men do and reaching out for something and finding it. They're not self-hating, they're enjoying the social side. Again, I would hope I wouldn't fall into that sort of thing, but I don't think many people can comment on something that's on one side entirely alien and, on another, entirely plausible (if not understandable).

[MellySingsDoom]

Glice - correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Caucasus in Russian terms refer to the likes of Uzbekistan, Checniya etc? Otherwise, for a lot of Russo-nationalists, the usual mix of poverty, lack of opportunity, relative ignorance of other cultures etc do play their role, if even (for me) it's no reason to tag onto such a fucked ideaology...to put it into UK terms, I suspect that a lot of people who've voted for the BNP in recent local/national are doing it for the above reasons, and not because they follow the John Tyndell/Nick Griffin idea of pure fascism.

[Glice]

I suspect you may well be right.

I'll go one further on the contentious side of things and say that 'pure fascism' is prefable to merely scapegoating one group of people; fascism, in the proper sense, in the literal sense, needn't immediately mean 'racism' (although that's one consequence of the political system, particularly when it's married to an ideology). Political ideologies, are, in themselves, a fairly 20th-century idea.

I get a bit excited by words, how they're used, and what they represent. It's one of my bags.

EDIT: oh, sorry incomplete response - the BNP are one concerning but relatively minority aspect of 'racism in the UK'; there's a subcurrent of 'iffy political stances' which complicate matters. I have issues with liberals alienating themselves from the 'absolute' notion of 'racism'; I can't propose a be re-orientation of personal/ local/ national identity politics, but I can point at hot-spots of concern.

Originally Posted by Glice

fascism, in the proper sense, in the literal sense, needn't immediately mean 'racism' (although that's one consequence of the political system, particularly when it's married to an ideology).

Exactly.

One can avoid adhering to any particular political ideology and still say things that are racist, be capable of actions that are racist etc.

Say, someone like Sting battling against the destruction of the amazonic forest is an unconscious racist stance, in that he's using a personal cause that he has at heart without thinking of what the consequences of what he has in mind would have in the area, with locals becoming jobless as a result. He obviously doesn't mean it to be a racist thing, yet his propaganda is potentially racist.

[MellySingsDoom]

Glice - this is turning into a bit of an "I agree with ya loads"-in ...

Ooh..."political idealogies as a 20th Century ideaoly" sutff - in general, hell yeah; however, I'd point to things like old man Marx, the Communards, the Levellers, Wat Tyler's lot etc etc snore snore, as also being very much of a strong (basically "socialist") politcal ideaology. I'm honestly not very good on the theory side of stuff (demonrail is v good on that, whereas I just tend to go "duh, where's the beer?"), but I feel it's worth bringing up....even the story of Christ could be seen, in a certain skewed reading, as essentially political (hammering against the political and religious mores of his day)*

*Of course if W Bennett posted here, he'd say "But Christ didn't exist!". To which I'd respond, "Hey Bill (he hates being called Bill), isn't that a Thai strip bar over there?"