[blunderbuss]

By which I mean, how much technically do you know, not how many bands do you know about.

Do you know about time signatures? Do you know about harmonics? Or is Just Intonation all a mystery to you?


I'm of the "I don't know about art but I know what I like" persuasion. I see these words and don't know what they mean, but it doesn't stop me from getting enjoyment out of what I hear. I just can't intellectualise about it.

What about you?

[acousticrock87]

I'm pretty knowledgable about music theory, but probably not as knowledgable as anyone who's played piano for 5-10 years. I pick it up everywhere I can and can hold my own in a conversation about anything related. I understand rhythm and chord structure and intervals and whatnot, but not in a lot of depth. I like it; it's fun for me.

But as far as it affecting the art, it depends. I have no problem with bands that aren't theory-savy, but certain artists would lose me if I thought they didn't have an idea of what they were doing.

The appeal for artists like Haino, Branca, Jandek, etc., to me, depends on the fact that they actually know what they're doing. If a guy picks up a guitar for the first time and wails on it like Branca, or plays a Jandek chord, I can't appreciate it as art no matter how sincerely it's done. But if I know that those guys are aware of what they're doing and put a genuine amount of work into their art (though after this many years, all three have paid their dues regardless), then I can appreciate it.

Sonic Youth took an interesting route, where I don't think they ever took theory into account at all. But they've gotten around it and put real heart into their work, so it's impossible to write off. They are talented, and they know what they're doing--even without theory.

[Toilet & Bowels]

not that i know anything on the subject but i don't think jandek would know a huge amout about music theory. not that it matters either way.

[This Is Not Here]

I know essentially nothing at all, and for me that only boosts my appreciation of music. I know more about painting/drawing, and now whenever I see an image I understand for the most part how its been made, it doesn't decrease my appreciation of the image, but it doesn't have that sense of mystery music has for me. Becuase I have no real concepts of music theory, music and musicians will always be on a higher plain to me, and has the untouchable magnificence and mystery that keeps me buying records...

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

not that i know anything on the subject but i don't think jandek would know a huge amout about music theory. not that it matters either way.

I don't either, but I think he knows what he's doing within his own style. He's spontaneous, but he tunes each note intentionally and he puts thought into his direction.

[SYRFox]

Well I learned music theory and played piano in a music school for six years, so I think I know a bit about theory.
And I think I intellectualize much music... it's not something conscious, it's like that.

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

If a guy picks up a guitar for the first time and wails on it like Branca, or plays a Jandek chord, I can't appreciate it as art no matter how sincerely it's done. But if I know that those guys are aware of what they're doing and put a genuine amount of work into their art (though after this many years, all three have paid their dues regardless), then I can appreciate it.

This is exactly what I don't like about a lot of musicians in the first place. It's absolutely not true that if you put a lot of work into your art it will necessarily be either heartfelt or worthy of someone else's attention. There is no explanation as to why someone could play exactly like Branca putting no effort whatsoever into it and either sound better than him or worse, other than they know what they're doing regardless of the amount of theory that they know in the first place.

Also, any type of music or band that has to rely on being intellectualised and contextualised constantly is probably ultimately better talked about than listened to.

[blunderbuss]

Just to clarify, I'm not for one moment suggesting that anyone has to understand musical theory to either play or enjoy music. I just started thinking about knowledge of musical theory because of the math rock thread, and the fact that, to properly categorise a band as math rock (if that's what you really wanted to do), you'd need to know a regular time signature from an irregular one.

I don't generally think of music as being within a particular genre, unless I'm in a record shop and want to ask "where's the post rock section", or something like that, but I wondered... something to do with genre categorisation... which I can't now remember well enough to put into words.

[atsonicpark]

100%.

[GrungeMonkey]

i know shit-all about music

[Death & the Maiden]

I know some music theory, because I've been learning guitar for about three years. I'm not an expert, but I do know more than most other musicians I know. To compose something that sounds good, most people I know will have to play their instrument for a long time before they find something that works, but I'll know what works before I play because I know some theory.

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

This is exactly what I don't like about a lot of musicians in the first place. It's absolutely not true that if you put a lot of work into your art it will necessarily be either heartfelt or worthy of someone else's attention. There is no explanation as to why someone could play exactly like Branca putting no effort whatsoever into it and either sound better than him or worse, other than they know what they're doing regardless of the amount of theory that they know in the first place.

Also, any type of music or band that has to rely on being intellectualised and contextualised constantly is probably ultimately better talked about than listened to.

It's probably just my own personal bitterness, but it's just that I can't stand it when people say someone like Haino is talentless--and I know a lot of people who think that. It's one thing to not like an artist--that's fine--but I can't stand seeing a lifetime of hard work and genuine heart like that being shoved into the same corner as someone screwing around with an amp in the back room every once in a while. There's a difference, but a lot of people don't recognize it, so I think intellectualizing it somehow "avenges" them, and I've convinced people to at least appreciate Haino in that light. They don't need to like it, but it seems wrong for them to call it talentless.

[atsonicpark]

0-3-5
0-3-6-5
0-3-5
3-0

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

It's probably just my own personal bitterness, but it's just that I can't stand it when people say someone like Haino is talentless--and I know a lot of people who think that. It's one thing to not like an artist--that's fine--but I can't stand seeing a lifetime of hard work and genuine heart like that being shoved into the same corner as someone screwing around with an amp in the back room every once in a while. There's a difference, but a lot of people don't recognize it, so I think intellectualizing it somehow "avenges" them, and I've convinced people to at least appreciate Haino in that light. They don't need to like it, but it seems wrong for them to call it talentless.

Yeah that's cool. The only thing is that by trying to transfer the enthusiasm thet you have for Keiji Haino's music to someone who doesn't know him you'd better avoid trying to ''intellectualise'' his music, 'cause the average man on the street is not interested in knowing more ''socio-political'' or ''technical'' stuff about him (if he is at all), he'd rather hear something by him that strikes him as good to his ears.

[atsonicpark]

i know enough to reccomend red lorry yellow lorry.

The man and the woman on the street don't like average bands.

[nicfit]

Originally Posted by atsonicpark

0-3-5
0-3-6-5
0-3-5
3-0

smoke on the water?

[radarmaker]

Precisely jack-shit. I did win a local music pub quiz 6 weeks on the trot though

Originally Posted by blunderbuss

Just to clarify, I'm not for one moment suggesting that anyone has to understand musical theory to either play or enjoy music. I just started thinking about knowledge of musical theory because of the math rock thread, and the fact that, to properly categorise a band as math rock (if that's what you really wanted to do), you'd need to know a regular time signature from an irregular one.

I don't generally think of music as being within a particular genre, unless I'm in a record shop and want to ask "where's the post rock section", or something like that, but I wondered... something to do with genre categorisation... which I can't now remember well enough to put into words.

There's also the fact that you don't have to be necessarily a master of the guitar/drums etc to play this math rock thing. Di Lacuna - a band that vaguely had some staccato/fragmented time signatures on some of their instrumental tracks - are less than masters of their own instruments on closer inspection, yet they trick you into thinking that they know exactly what they are doing more than they probably do.

I think it was Glice (who has a better knowledge of music theory than most of us posting on this thread) rightly pointed out about some math rock band on a thread a while ago thet they were prog rock without the balls to be fully prog, either because of technical shortcomings or inverted snobbery. That sums up a few things about all this ''knowledgable'' nonsense that you get on similar threads like this.

[mangajunky]

I done been trained, but theory don't mean shit. Music is personal and fuck what a professor tells you is technically good If you think you can do something better, you can...because it's all subjective.