Approaches to Fiction Writing.

jheii · 03.27.2006, 07:52 PM

Any thoughts about it. I'm sure there are some other writers on this board. I'm currently making notes and outlines for a story that will either be made into a graphic novel by an established comic artist, or written into a book that will be much harder to get published since I have no contacts in the literary world. I think I posted the plot synopsis earlier. My current approach has been to write a basic description of what happens, a two or three sentence version of what the story is, and then translate that into an outline of how the plot will unfold, which events in the life of the main character lead to the climax, and in what order they should be told. Now I'm writing detailed notes on the setting (the actual place is imagined), and don't plan on doing any work on the characters until I've filled in all the gaps. Let's discuss. I'm feeling analytical.

krastian · 03.27.2006, 08:09 PM

Hey man.....I have an English Degree with a minor in Creative Writing Fiction. Post any questions you have and I'll try to give you some advice....I don't know as much about a "graphic novel" as say traditional fiction/short stories, but I'll try. So far it looks like you are starting to really flesh things out and put together the "world" you are trying to create......fleshing these things out is a great start and much of the work will already be done since you did this stuff in advance.

jheii · 03.27.2006, 08:13 PM

Any advice you have on the ins and outs, dos and dont's, etc. of a good tragic plot would be nice (I'm vaguely familiar with Aristotle's views on the subject). I don't really know much about graphic novels either, to be honest, which is why I'm trying to work out as many details as I can in the planning stage. That way I should be able to tailor the actual content to whatever medium I end up using.

krastian · 03.27.2006, 08:22 PM

Hmmmmm.......have dynamic characters, make the unexpected happen, and most importantly SHOW, DON'T TELL. Let yr characters actions/expressions/dialogue do the the talking....ie don't write "Bill was really happy because of X."

jheii · 03.27.2006, 08:59 PM

I don't know if this is any help, but I've found that my story is progressing a lot more organically without about theme. For the most part, at this point, I'm only thinking about the plot, and I find that as I develop a strong storyline and setting, I see opprotunities for what I can say, as opposed to what I want to say. Basically I just keep asking myself basic questions. What happened? Where did it happen? How could it happen here? Who would be involved? The "why's" are where you get to excercise yr intellect, where you get to make yr thematic statements. If yr plot is strong, and yr convictions are strong, then the theme of yr work will appear to be much more valid than if yr creating something that's contrived, just so you can get a certain message across. Sort of how songwriters think of melody first, and lyrics second.

jheii · 03.27.2006, 09:32 PM

I think you could use this as an argument in favor of a Dyonisian worldview. It is the imaginative aspect of a work (its plot), that is the ultimate measure of its value. The rational side (theme) is only secondary, and subjective at that.

jheii · 03.27.2006, 10:34 PM

eh? Dionysus anyone?

marleypumpkin · 03.27.2006, 11:14 PM

Just do what Carlos Castaneda did, take a bunch of mescaline & other drugs, & I'm sure you'll come up w/ something. Look at what Carlos came up w/.

jheii · 03.27.2006, 11:19 PM

Not familliar with this dude. But I've taken lots of drugs, and done some good writing on them, and I've also done some bad writing on them. Alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, LSD, mushrooms, opium, etc. Drugs can't write a book. They can only make yr mind work differently, giving you a new experience to work with. Read my signature, and emphasize the words "for me."

marleypumpkin · 03.27.2006, 11:24 PM

You should really check out Carlos's work. Although he claims his work to be non-fiction, it's great literature for us who have gone through good, & bad drug experiences. My drug maturing started by reading his book, "A Seperate Reality, Further Conversations W/ Don Juan".

jheii · 03.27.2006, 11:29 PM

Sounds a bit bunk to me. Nothing I hate worse than someone who tries to explain all of existence with theories of awareness and eternal life. See the above post about theme vs. plot. What happens in these books? Is there value in what he's showing us, or only in what he's telling us (to stick with krastian in the name of literary solidarity)? I'm just not sold. I can figure out drugs on my own. I don't trust anyone's view on the afterlife unless they're speaking from a sealed coffin. End of rant.

Toilet & Bowels · 03.27.2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marleypumpkin

My drug maturing

?!?!?!

marleypumpkin · 03.27.2006, 11:35 PM

Well, I can understand your point. To me he has a unique way of writing about the spiritual side to drug experiences. You either love Carlos Castaned, or you hate him. I love his work.

marleypumpkin · 03.27.2006, 11:37 PM

"My drug maturing." -marleypumpkin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

?!?!?!

I'll explain. When I first started doing heavy drugs, I wanted to learn & find out as much information as possible. So, I was looking to mature in the area of drugs. Tha's what I meant to say.

jheii · 03.27.2006, 11:39 PM

You may love his work, and thats just dandy, but I love the work of Larry David. Doesn't mean it qualifies on good fiction writing. Janet Reno has a very unique appearance, but she's ugly as fuck. Do you see where I'm going? I'm not trying to be an asshole, really.

marleypumpkin · 03.27.2006, 11:46 PM

Well, as it were, I do like the Huntr S. Thompson quote you used as your signature.

jheii · 03.27.2006, 11:49 PM

Can we talk about fiction writing again?

Apollo v. Dionysus?

Baudelaire said:
"Be continually drunk. On poetry, wine, or virtue as you wish"
Something like that, anyway.

Do you value a connection to the irrational over the rational, or vice-versa? I've illustrated above why I think that the irrational leads to better fiction writing, does anyone disagree?

krastian · 03.27.2006, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jheii

Do you value a connection to the irrational over the rational, or vice-versa? I've illustrated above why I think that the irrational leads to better fiction writing, does anyone disagree?

As in what is happening in the story? Then I'd say yeah...the irrational/absurd are things that often make a story worth reading. Nobody really wants to read a story about Dick and Jane and their 3 kids that they take to soccer practice after a quick dinner at 5 o'clock on Monday's Wednesday's and Friday's.......nothing happens. This does not compel the reader to read on. Of course, most stories have to be somewhat rational or when the irrational/horrible thing happens (or I guess I should say turning point or climax of the story), then it will hold no weight or meaning.

jennthebenn · 03.28.2006, 12:29 AM

as i've been writing a novel, i've found that the characters came to dictate
the story/plot more than i had a great story and just wrote some people
to illustrate it/propel it. this is of course just my thoughts, but it
helped immensely to outline the actual characters first before anything.
i treated them like actual people, i know how tall they are, weight,
hobbies, eating habits, family members/history, vocal idiosyncracies,
linguistic touchstones...the more i developed them, i imagined their
interactions and arrived upon an ideal story for them. then i could
concentrate on developing the story. which has been the real maddening
process...took a year to write out a narrative progression i was happy
with.

03.27.2006, 07:52 PM	#1
jheii bad moon rising Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 224	Any thoughts about it. I'm sure there are some other writers on this board. I'm currently making notes and outlines for a story that will either be made into a graphic novel by an established comic artist, or written into a book that will be much harder to get published since I have no contacts in the literary world. I think I posted the plot synopsis earlier. My current approach has been to write a basic description of what happens, a two or three sentence version of what the story is, and then translate that into an outline of how the plot will unfold, which events in the life of the main character lead to the climax, and in what order they should be told. Now I'm writing detailed notes on the setting (the actual place is imagined), and don't plan on doing any work on the characters until I've filled in all the gaps. Let's discuss. I'm feeling analytical. __________________ "In the room the women come and go With Vodka-mixed orange Jello"
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 08:09 PM	#2
krastian invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Baltimore Posts: 7,808	Hey man.....I have an English Degree with a minor in Creative Writing Fiction. Post any questions you have and I'll try to give you some advice....I don't know as much about a "graphic novel" as say traditional fiction/short stories, but I'll try. So far it looks like you are starting to really flesh things out and put together the "world" you are trying to create......fleshing these things out is a great start and much of the work will already be done since you did this stuff in advance. __________________ Confusion is next and next after that is the Truth.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 08:13 PM	#3
jheii bad moon rising Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 224	Any advice you have on the ins and outs, dos and dont's, etc. of a good tragic plot would be nice (I'm vaguely familiar with Aristotle's views on the subject). I don't really know much about graphic novels either, to be honest, which is why I'm trying to work out as many details as I can in the planning stage. That way I should be able to tailor the actual content to whatever medium I end up using. __________________ "In the room the women come and go With Vodka-mixed orange Jello"
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 08:22 PM	#4
krastian invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Baltimore Posts: 7,808	Hmmmmm.......have dynamic characters, make the unexpected happen, and most importantly SHOW, DON'T TELL. Let yr characters actions/expressions/dialogue do the the talking....ie don't write "Bill was really happy because of X." __________________ Confusion is next and next after that is the Truth.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 08:59 PM	#5
jheii bad moon rising Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 224	I don't know if this is any help, but I've found that my story is progressing a lot more organically without about theme. For the most part, at this point, I'm only thinking about the plot, and I find that as I develop a strong storyline and setting, I see opprotunities for what I can say, as opposed to what I want to say. Basically I just keep asking myself basic questions. What happened? Where did it happen? How could it happen here? Who would be involved? The "why's" are where you get to excercise yr intellect, where you get to make yr thematic statements. If yr plot is strong, and yr convictions are strong, then the theme of yr work will appear to be much more valid than if yr creating something that's contrived, just so you can get a certain message across. Sort of how songwriters think of melody first, and lyrics second. __________________ "In the room the women come and go With Vodka-mixed orange Jello"
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 09:32 PM	#6
jheii bad moon rising Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 224	I think you could use this as an argument in favor of a Dyonisian worldview. It is the imaginative aspect of a work (its plot), that is the ultimate measure of its value. The rational side (theme) is only secondary, and subjective at that. __________________ "In the room the women come and go With Vodka-mixed orange Jello"
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 10:34 PM	#7
jheii bad moon rising Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 224	eh? Dionysus anyone? __________________ "In the room the women come and go With Vodka-mixed orange Jello"
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 11:14 PM	#8
marleypumpkin invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 3,193	Just do what Carlos Castaneda did, take a bunch of mescaline & other drugs, & I'm sure you'll come up w/ something. Look at what Carlos came up w/. __________________ "It takes 2 fingers to make the peace sign. Just like it takes 2 people to make love. When you go like this , you're jerking off." -George Carlin
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 11:19 PM	#9
jheii bad moon rising Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 224	Not familliar with this dude. But I've taken lots of drugs, and done some good writing on them, and I've also done some bad writing on them. Alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, LSD, mushrooms, opium, etc. Drugs can't write a book. They can only make yr mind work differently, giving you a new experience to work with. Read my signature, and emphasize the words "for me." __________________ "In the room the women come and go With Vodka-mixed orange Jello"
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 11:24 PM	#10
marleypumpkin invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 3,193	You should really check out Carlos's work. Although he claims his work to be non-fiction, it's great literature for us who have gone through good, & bad drug experiences. My drug maturing started by reading his book, "A Seperate Reality, Further Conversations W/ Don Juan". __________________ "It takes 2 fingers to make the peace sign. Just like it takes 2 people to make love. When you go like this , you're jerking off." -George Carlin
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 11:29 PM	#11
jheii bad moon rising Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 224	Sounds a bit bunk to me. Nothing I hate worse than someone who tries to explain all of existence with theories of awareness and eternal life. See the above post about theme vs. plot. What happens in these books? Is there value in what he's showing us, or only in what he's telling us (to stick with krastian in the name of literary solidarity)? I'm just not sold. I can figure out drugs on my own. I don't trust anyone's view on the afterlife unless they're speaking from a sealed coffin. End of rant. __________________ "In the room the women come and go With Vodka-mixed orange Jello"
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 11:35 PM	#13
marleypumpkin invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 3,193	Well, I can understand your point. To me he has a unique way of writing about the spiritual side to drug experiences. You either love Carlos Castaned, or you hate him. I love his work. __________________ "It takes 2 fingers to make the peace sign. Just like it takes 2 people to make love. When you go like this , you're jerking off." -George Carlin
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 11:39 PM	#15
jheii bad moon rising Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 224	You may love his work, and thats just dandy, but I love the work of Larry David. Doesn't mean it qualifies on good fiction writing. Janet Reno has a very unique appearance, but she's ugly as fuck. Do you see where I'm going? I'm not trying to be an asshole, really. __________________ "In the room the women come and go With Vodka-mixed orange Jello"
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 11:46 PM	#16
marleypumpkin invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 3,193	Well, as it were, I do like the Huntr S. Thompson quote you used as your signature. __________________ "It takes 2 fingers to make the peace sign. Just like it takes 2 people to make love. When you go like this , you're jerking off." -George Carlin
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.27.2006, 11:49 PM	#17
jheii bad moon rising Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 224	Can we talk about fiction writing again? Apollo v. Dionysus? Baudelaire said: "Be continually drunk. On poetry, wine, or virtue as you wish" Something like that, anyway. Do you value a connection to the irrational over the rational, or vice-versa? I've illustrated above why I think that the irrational leads to better fiction writing, does anyone disagree? __________________ "In the room the women come and go With Vodka-mixed orange Jello"
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

03.28.2006, 12:29 AM	#19
jennthebenn expwy. to yr skull Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,261	as i've been writing a novel, i've found that the characters came to dictate the story/plot more than i had a great story and just wrote some people to illustrate it/propel it. this is of course just my thoughts, but it helped immensely to outline the actual characters first before anything. i treated them like actual people, i know how tall they are, weight, hobbies, eating habits, family members/history, vocal idiosyncracies, linguistic touchstones...the more i developed them, i imagined their interactions and arrived upon an ideal story for them. then i could concentrate on developing the story. which has been the real maddening process...took a year to write out a narrative progression i was happy with.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|