[SonicBebs]

there's been alot of flag waving recently what with the royal wedding and bin laden getting shot. What are your feelings toward Nationalism?

is it wrong to love your country? Is it wrong to believe that your country is better than any other country? Isn't it a few short steps away from racism?
Or is it natural to love your homeland

i love parts of England. Some of the country is beautiful. And it's my home, but i can't think of too much that we've done that i'm proud of.

[Keeping It Simple]

There's nothing wrong with patriotism.

[SonicBebs]

is that the same as nationalism though?


edit: sorry Nefeli, this response was meant for Keeping It Simple.

[floatingslowly]

have you BEEN to America????

it's fanfuckingtastic.

[jonathan]

There is nothing wrong with nationalism as long as you are comfortable with constructing an identity based on a state-constructed conception of culture. I happen to have a problem with that. There has never been a time when culture has been a bounded by borders; almost all cultures play off of each other one way or another, and in a sense, there is a natural evolution in trends and behaviors. The caveat being that culture NEVER unfolds in a pre-determined way (i.e. there is no pre-industrial, industrial, post-industrial universal trend in the development of society). Thus, I think it's important to posit the concept of the nation in terms of the greater context of governance, with increasing forms of discipline being an enacted on the citizens.

The point being that nationalism is inextricably linked with the actions of the state. Resistance to the state is thus nipped in the bud, and or marginalized. It is a form of socialization which prizes allegiance to fabricated, bounded, conception of culture. Nationalism is the breeding ground for any idea which attempts to push that conception of culture as something unique and ultimately worth defending. Taken to the extreme this is a form of "racism", whether you like it or not.

So, in short, I'm not a nationalist and I think it's a bad thing.

[jonathan]

Originally Posted by Nefeli

i think what i described at the end of previous post was more towards patriotism too.
making the translation in my head of nationalism; it has a negative meaning this term in our times. its related with extreme political situations.

I think Patriotism and Nationalism are only subtly different. Patriotism is allegiance to the state, nationalism to the culture. In reality, both are state constructed, so I see very little difference between the two.

[krischanski]

Nationalism (culture, language etc.) and patriotism (state, politics etc.) and racism (bio, ethno etc.): that's all stupid shit.

[knox]

It's natural to love your homeland and your surrondings to a certain degree, but patriotism/nationalism is generally really stupid and dangerous.
My culture is much more regional and related to my family background, it can't possibly be completely unified throughout the entire country, with people from different backgrounds, ethnicities, history and religion etc.
A nation is a fantasy with an invented identity and culture (that may or may not be based on real cultural aspects of the region) but human culture has no borders.
Enforcing 'patriotism' is kind of important to enforce obedience and a sense of unity but also results in some of the ugliest things the human being is capable of.
I just got up so I probably don't make sense.

[knox]

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

i love parts of England. Some of the country is beautiful.

But England is beautiful.

[floatingslowly]

I would like to say that a world without borders would just let all the mexicans in, but since I love mexicans and am currently undergoing a calculated expatriation myself, I'll end this post with a rousing HAPPY CINCO de MAYO, mi hermanos!!

[knox]

they could possibly claim back all the land that was originally theirs.
you better leave NOW!

[Pookie]

I agree with what Glice said (when he says it).

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by knox

they could possibly claim back all the land that was originally theirs.
you better leave NOW!

as if. there is a "come and take it" flag hanging in the conference room near me.

nobody is taking Texas except for Texans, and that may be soon, gods willing.

now, California...they can have!

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

there's been alot of flag waving recently what with the royal wedding and bin laden getting shot.

i suppose they are both public spectacle

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

What are your feelings toward Nationalism?

it's a XIX century invention that was useful at the time, it promoted the breakup of empires and self-determination of peoples around the globe. it was, as martha stewart would put it (ha), "a good thing".

nowadays it's more of a handicap for progress. these days you can't identify an ethnic group with a "nation" any longer.

just look at israel and palestine to see what nationalism is doing today.

so-- my feelings toward it? suspicion and frustration, mostly.

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

is it wrong to love your country?

why, no. but there are so many ways to do that, some are great, some are deeply wrong.

wanting to save natural treasures or eliminate poverty because you love your country is a good thing. throwing molotov cocktails in the stadium because you "love your country" and your team lost is not.

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

Is it wrong to believe that your country is better than any other country?

yes. it is fucking delusional. some countries are better at some things than other country. for examply, my current country is better at doing business, but it sucks at food. my country of birth is great at food and great at corruption. etc.

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

Isn't it a few short steps away from racism?

what is?

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

Or is it natural to love your homeland

i suppose it's natural to love the things you're familiar with. i for one miss living next to the sea. and i miss good food ('merica doesn't do food right).

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

i love parts of England. Some of the country is beautiful.

why not, mr. blake.

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

And it's my home, but i can't think of too much that we've done that i'm proud of.

eh, yeah, that royal wedding, pfffffttt. be proud of your student rioters though. i think they were awesome.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

be proud of your student rioters though. i think they were awesome.

That's part of the problem. Nationalism in Britain anyway is very selective about what it celebrates as 'great'. It celebrates institutions (the monarchy, the military) but sees any kind of radicalism as running counter to that greatness. So the SAS are celebrated but not the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the Women's Institute but not The Diggers - and yet it was that radical spirit which had far more of a hand in the creation of things like the Welfare State - something I'd happily wave a union jack for over a royal wedding. And it's why I support the campaign to make Blake's 'Jerusalem' the national anthem.

[Keeping It Simple]

This guy clearly loves his country.

 

[the ikara cult]

Ive fucking despised the Royal Wedding, Ive tolerated the fact my high street has had British flags flying for weeks because it doesnt cause me any bother. Ive always hated cheap token patriotism, people saluting a flag rather than doing anything to uphold the values it represents, and the royal family is the ultimate example of that

[SonicBebs]

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

i can't think of too much that we've done that i'm proud of.

actually, i love our Ales and our Footpaths and David Attenborough

[Pelle]

Nothing wrong with loving.

Too much "you're a rascist" if you say u love your country and are proud of who you are.

Idiots are mixing it together with nationalsocialism..
fuck it..

[knox]

maybe 'nationalism' can be easily mixed up with racism in Europe, but it certainly doesn't apply to places like US, Canada, Brazil... you know, 'mixed', 'melting pot' nations where the idea of patriotism is still imposed.