[hevusa]

It really is easy to see the right answer here. The countries with "free" education have a population with (when compared to America):

longer vacations, more luxuries, free healthcare, free dental, maternity leave, etc.

They already have what the capitalist market is trying to achieve (go figure).

[gast30]

what you also need to see
if you look at america
their numbers are about 300 million people

and i understand that they give the message that you need to take good care of your health
put in some responsebility
you also need to understand this message

other places china or india, are with 1 billion people, and that also changes
how or whit what you compare it with

[SONIC GAIL]

[quote=kinn]no its not.

people who are actually poor cant afford university without state assistance. asking them to work 2 jobs to pay for it themselves makes them stressed, tired, too busy too study and gives them a worse education. we all do worse when that happens as a society. we are underqualified, stupider, pitted against each other with less hope of progress. the class divide gets bigger. those kids have to work even more for even less so their kids can have even less of a hope of being able to afford university. families get stuck in poverty for generations.

quote]

I am an example of this. In the beginning I had state assistance, but I lived on my own and had no other choice but to work a full time job (60 hrs a week) whilr going to school full time. It is impossible to keep that up. I dropped out from the stress and my grades sunk after 2 semesters. I went back 2 years later and was forced to pay out of pocket because you can only get assistance when you go to school full time and I could not do that i ended up just taking 2 classes at a time until I finished. I made straight A's that time around.

Because of my educational background I am kind of stuck into this lower wage position without any chance for advancement. Thus the story goes on for my kids will suffer the same fate unless they can get a scholarship and don't move out untill they graduate.

[ploesj]

people here are wondering how long it's going to take before school here gets too expensive.

cases of people not being able to afford higher education are pretty rare, since the fees are reasonable so most parents can easily afford it. there are scholarships for anyone who might struggle: you can apply for one, they look at your parents financial situation and the money you would spend on education and you get a large part of that money back.

my school costs around 600 euros a year, study material (mostly drawing stuff) not included. my mother is a single parent with three children, and we get a scholarship for a 'student living at home'. around 550 euros are paid back, so my education costs 50 euros a year, plus the materials.

this system has been proven to work pretty well. the idea behind it is that people who have a talent shouldn't have their level of education depend on wether their parents have money or not. everyone gets the same chances and starts at the same level. a student who has to work to pay for his studies ends up losing a lot of time (time that could be used to invest in the studies) and does not have the same chances as a richer student.

i do believe that it's the government's responsibility to provide education for who wants it or needs it. it will only make them better in the end. we would miss out on some very talented and highly qualified people later.

i read sways comment on how people don't necessarily need universities, how they can educate themselves... in some rare cases this is true, but i wouldn't say it works for everyone. if i apply it to my own school i'd definitely say it's untrue. i study at an art school and we are almost dipped into a giant pool of new impulses, stuff that would take years or cost a lot of money to acquire. in my first year i got the opportunity to visit conferences on graphic design for 1/4 of the price, practise different forms of printing (woodblock, etching,...) and learned how to develop photographs. i am in a large group of young people who are into the same stuff and will talk about their ideas or interests. we are surrounded by teachers with years of experience who know a lot and can look at our work in order to help us. i've seen people educate themselves in art (my boyfriend is one of them) but they all either wish they had some sort of education (he always says he would like to have some model classes, just to get a better view on anatomy) or they start it at a later age, investing a lot of time in it (a woman i know just started doing a part time job instead of a fulltime one so she could study again)

anyway, what i'm saying is that it doesn't hurt to give everyone the same chance in life. people's lives shouldn't depend on hox their parents did in life.

[EVOLghost]

wow.....my school(public) is estimated at roughly $8,000/year and that's actually fairly cheap.


My sister went to a private school and paid roughly 25,000/year. Luckily my father paid for her education and well....she doens't now have a 100+k debt ot pay off....

[floatingslowly]

this is just a prime example of how ThE BiBLE has caused untold suffering for 300 bllion Americans and mostly the working people who have to really get "out" there to earn a "car". 99% of the fact that marjuana smokers cannot be the cause of laze! We who do not take the party to the library are at a significant disadvantage to those bong toting Jesus-layers who DO and "try", because down here, brother man, when you got the blues, all you can do is stuff a pillar up yr shirt and cry "HABiB".
Aman. Hollerlooya. G's "UP" ho's down. ya'heard????

[SONIC GAIL]

r u directing this toward me? cause i like my bong and god

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by gast30

what you also need to see
if you look at america
their numbers are about 300 million people

and i understand that they give the message that you need to take good care of your health
put in some responsebility
you also need to understand this message

other places china or india, are with 1 billion people, and that also changes
how or whit what you compare it with

there is no reason why it can't be done on a state to state basis in America.

[gast30]

it is true hevusa
it can be done

i see a very hightech society that is possible now
what disturbes this
is the money plug-ins

we can't enjoy hightech if this is not around us
in our home, in the street

that is the product of studieing
we need to enjoy that
like we enjoy driving a car, flying with a plain, using a computer, using internet

a service to the public, everyone, poor as rich
and not a select group of people who have a lot of money

if it's all only for rich to very rich people
then it's a cycle that grows out of intelligence
and then you can't enjoy the work that you
knowing it's a fundament of animal ratio
and that don't suit hightech or modern behaviour

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Working class (which in most cases just boils down to a mentality some middle class people have these days) tend to not mind working their asses off to get what they want. They expect the same of others, regardless of what class system they may be.

I want a new guitar, there's no one to buy it for me (sans MAYBE Christmas). I need a new car, no one else is purchasing me one (ever!)....I've gotta go out and get it myself. Just like my mom, just like my parents, just like my grandparents. Not all of us have been "poor" In situations of struggle, we work two jobs. Welfare = embarrassment.



Who pays teachers at a free school?
Who buys all the paper and textbooks?
Who pays for the land and all the workers and materials that go into the building?


Sounds free to me....

Unless we were to live in a anarchistic society (which most here probably wouldn't realize would be my preference) it only makes sense to pay for the things we want. If school was free....who the fuck would actually want to attend when they think "oh, I can do whatever I want now and go to school tomorrow"?

no disraspect, but this sounds like a rant that belongs in the first world problems thread, not an intelligent discussion of public education..

and welfare=embarrasment?

don't be such an asshole, that shit was outright offensive and you owe millions of americans an apology for saying that (and also for obviously having voted for John McCain )

No one in America works harder than the poor, and no body gets less for their work than the poor, and nobodies work is more crucial to the day to day functioning of American than the poor. Brother, I don't see you taking your head out of your ass anytime soon so lets just agree to disagree here, but point blank, to be poor is a joke in america, and there is little traction to get ahead.

I would LOVE to go to school if I could afford it, I would pay a reasonable amount of money, but the tuition now even at the university I already paid for before is cost prohibitive now with all the fee increases. I am not trying to become some corporate prick, I am trying to be a better school teacher than I already am, and get the kind of credentials to go into those bullshit, self-righteous, rich academic administrators who keep fucking shit up cuz they have NO IDEA what REAL LIFE is like, to make the appropriate changes so that the youth no longer continue to rob and shoot each other in the streets simply because they see few other options, and people like you are too busy telling them its all their fault. fuck that, maybe they'll pull the gat and make you pose and freeze one day and have a moment of clarity. In the meantime, if we want to stop this problem we have two options, we can go full out genocide like we did the poor indians, and simply incarcerate and kill off all the poor from violence and preventable disease, or we can invest in public education, put better educated teachers, more tutors and mentors, more after school programs, more access to higher education both university and trade school, and over all increase the attention and opportunity we give the poor. If not, only comes around to bite us in our own asses for having neglected our own society out of a sense of pride and vindictive self-righteousness. The current climate does not suggest that we will go in this direction, in LA today they laid of an additional thousand LAUSD classified employees including librarians, tutors, teacher assistants, playground aids, after-school programs etc etc.. The LA County Office of Education budget is short BILLIONS of dollars this and next fiscal year, and so where is the opportunity? Where is the hope? What are we going to be able to do? How can we even try to help ourselves with no opportunity, no traction, no empathy?

College is not for partying, most people go there to get ahead in life, and to be able to compete with those rich kids who got life handed to them, and then exploit all the rest of us. Instead of robbing and killing those rich in a bloody, violent revolution, I'd rather we have an education revolucion and become those legit folks, rather than kill them off, but if the rich continue to make it a rich get richer society and continue to deny reasonable and affordable access to education, housing and healthcare, we will surely burn this motherfucker to the ground just to spit on it and mock its grave!

Lord have His Mercy!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Derek

but what can he say to the lil homiez?

word.

[gast30]

but what can he say to the lil homiez?

first who wants to be called homies
it's sort of a sociophatic you and i are in the same team
even if you think in your mind 'get lost whit that crap'

and lowering yourself to lil is a riduculous thing
the childeren, the childeren
what about the childeren?

start looking at your own life

the only message for young and old is
we are in the future

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

no disraspect, but this sounds like a rant that belongs in the first world problems thread, not an intelligent discussion of public education..

and welfare=embarrasment?

don't be such an asshole, that shit was outright offensive and you owe millions of americans an apology for saying that (and also for obviously having voted for John McCain )

No one in America works harder than the poor, and no body gets less for their work than the poor, and nobodies work is more crucial to the day to day functioning of American than the poor. Brother, I don't see you taking your head out of your ass anytime soon so lets just agree to disagree here, but point blank, to be poor is a joke in america, and there is little traction to get ahead.

I would LOVE to go to school if I could afford it, I would pay a reasonable amount of money, but the tuition now even at the university I already paid for before is cost prohibitive now with all the fee increases. I am not trying to become some corporate prick, I am trying to be a better school teacher than I already am, and get the kind of credentials to go into those bullshit, self-righteous, rich academic administrators who keep fucking shit up cuz they have NO IDEA what REAL LIFE is like, to make the appropriate changes so that the youth no longer continue to rob and shoot each other in the streets simply because they see few other options, and people like you are too busy telling them its all their fault. fuck that, maybe they'll pull the gat and make you pose and freeze one day and have a moment of clarity. In the meantime, if we want to stop this problem we have two options, we can go full out genocide like we did the poor indians, and simply incarcerate and kill off all the poor from violence and preventable disease, or we can invest in public education, put better educated teachers, more tutors and mentors, more after school programs, more access to higher education both university and trade school, and over all increase the attention and opportunity we give the poor. If not, only comes around to bite us in our own asses for having neglected our own society out of a sense of pride and vindictive self-righteousness. The current climate does not suggest that we will go in this direction, in LA today they laid of an additional thousand LAUSD classified employees including librarians, tutors, teacher assistants, playground aids, after-school programs etc etc.. The LA County Office of Education budget is short BILLIONS of dollars this and next fiscal year, and so where is the opportunity? Where is the hope? What are we going to be able to do? How can we even try to help ourselves with no opportunity, no traction, no empathy?

College is not for partying, most people go there to get ahead in life, and to be able to compete with those rich kids who got life handed to them, and then exploit all the rest of us. Instead of robbing and killing those rich in a bloody, violent revolution, I'd rather we have an education revolucion and become those legit folks, rather than kill them off, but if the rich continue to make it a rich get richer society and continue to deny reasonable and affordable access to education, housing and healthcare, we will surely burn this motherfucker to the ground just to spit on it and mock its grave!

Lord have His Mercy!

Major misunderstanding...I don't think everyone (taken they actually need it/haven't put themselves into situations to where they need it) should be embarrassed by welfare...it's just something I personally would feel embarrassed by, but only because I know what I am capable of doing because of the things I've already done. People want shit to be easy...and easy things should be...but reality is that they are not. Nothing wrong with one taking pride in their own accomplishments, and appreciating the struggle of it all. Nothing wrong with a society that actively instills ideas such as "living within one's own means"...most don't. Which is what I was getting at with all that poor vs. middle class stuff. MOST PEOPLE CAN NOT AFFORD TO GO TO SCHOOL, PERIOD! Most receive aid of some sort. The ones that really want it, work their asses off in HS and receive scholarships. I don't care what you say, I personally believe one will take school much more seriously if they are working their own asses off to pay for it.

Again, I ask....

Who pays the teachers in a free school?
Who purchases the books/paper/computers/etc?

Is it really fucking free?

And for the record, I didn't vote for John McCain. Matter of fact, I've never voted.

You say no one in America works harder than the poor....I would say this is true, but mostly applies to the poor that have worked their asses off to get wherever it is they are wanting to go. In America, it is easy to be poor. The majority of our poor do not go without food or shelter or utilities...because as you are well aware, there are services in place to take care of these people. Services I pay for...services, in many cases, which are taken advantage of. Services that pay more money per kid for the sometimes non-working. "Well, how do you expect a single parent with 6 children to work?"...I don't, I expect them to not have so many fucking kids. In a perfect world, MY money wouldn't go to aid these people. I don't mind it going toward the single mother of two whose husband ran out on her and she's doing the best she can working at a grocery store...that, I don't mind. I don't mind it going toward the physically disabled.

I'm not about free shit, sorry. I don't see how it could, in all actuality, be free to begin with. There's no such thing as a free lunch...

And again, I think most 18-30 year olds much prefer partying than doing their homework....when they have to pay for it out of their own pockets, I think it ends up being more appreciated. That's just my take, + if this qualifies me as an idiot or an asshole...I'm sorry.

It's always "free this/free that...it's working across the ocean why can't we have it here, what the fuck can my government GIVE me"....I just don't think like that, sorry. You want it...you get it, or you do without.

If it really boils down to a "more intelligent society", and we aren't talking school solely as a means of advancing one's own career, then it all lies on the individual. Personal study can go a long way. If one wants to learn, this day in age it's incredibly easy to do it without college....but, there's still stupid fucks everywhere...go figure. Unless of course....you feel as if most Americans are indeed highly intelligent and all desperately wanting to spend 25-40 hours a week going to school.

[Glice]

swa, where are you on the political compass? It's a slight diversion, but I suspect you're further right than you actual think in yourself.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Here's me:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/face...6.50&soc=-4.92

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Glice

swa, where are you on the political compass? It's a slight diversion, but I suspect you're further right than you actual think in yourself.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Here's me:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/face...6.50&soc=-4.92

left nor right.

I've never really claimed to be on either side of the political spectrum, either.

[Glice]

Well, claim or not, I'm telling you you're coming across as right-wing but seem to be habitually reaching for leftist values. I haven't got a problem with the right-wing - some of my best friends are Nazis - but, well, I think it helps people to know where they are, what it means and so on to better represent themselves.

Of course, this is probably because I've been to university rather than doggedly clinging to some spurious notions of individuality.

[ann ashtray]

Oh man, I'm the furthest thing from a Nazi...and depending on the issue, I sometimes do have strong opinions that would normally be perceived as leftist...this particular issue just isn't one of those cases.

And honestly, I don't care what I come off as being. I KNOW the thoughts I've expressed here are anything but popular. I could have just stayed out of it or said "YES, school should be free! This would make it far easier for anyone to get where they want/need to be in life"...I didn't say that though, nor did I avoid the issue.

Again, I don't care what I'm perceived as.

[Glice]

I think it's a pretty big issue, across the spectrum, if the right is forever associated with the Nazis (who got the trains running on time and identified themselves as socialist, correctly). I think your attitude to welfare and social mobility is meritocratic [lol], which for me is forever problematised by problems relating to social welfare, social mobility and that deathless hinterland of socio-geographic disequilibriums. Or, you're a right-wing apologist on this issue. Which, again, is fine. This has nothing to do with 'perception' (yet) and more to do with the positions you're representing; if you're happy to [dis-]reconcile your meritocracy in spite of the very apparent problems, in America, relating to social welfare (which I suspect is less of a problem in Macon, GA than where suchfriends is in CA), then you carry on.

I mean, essentially I'm foreclosing future argument there, which means you can go back to posting about the Stooges. So it's a win for you.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by swa(y)

And again, I think most 18-30 year olds much prefer partying than doing their homework....when they have to pay for it out of their own pockets, I think it ends up being more appreciated. That's just my take, + if this qualifies me as an idiot or an asshole...I'm sorry.

quit generalising.

[ann ashtray]

My attitude towards those that can do for themselves is meritocratic, yes. I think the current system is being abused, yes. I think this is a legitimate problem, yes. I realize some people actually do in fact need welfare, yes. I do not have any issues when it is an actual need...I just think it needs to be restructured and much more strict. I see hardworking people being taken advantage of, and it's not fair.

People want all the necessities of life, often times all the while not willing to make personal sacrifice.