[knox]

well, that's the thing I don't want anybody dead. Not even the people who pointed guns at me. So I guess that's the difference. I didn't want to talk about Manson anymore because:

a- it's unrelated
b- i was afraid it'd stop being funny and start getting vomitous

I don't know why people go on and on about people breaking it into your house. It's not often that murderers will decide to break into a stranger's house to kill them. And even if they do, they'll have that planned, you won't be expecting it, your chances are really low. Most of the time, murderers will gain access to people's houses because they are trusted.

Burglars tend to go when no one is home. For safety, you'd be advised to call the police and hide, if you see/hear someone coming in try to get out without being noticed if you can, or simply let them take what they want. Any of those options will be safer for you then standing there with a gun expecting to have a chance to shoot someone. In fact, that's how accidents happen and people shoot their friends or loved ones.

If you are so worried about burglars, you'd be safer investing your money in an alarm system or moving into an apartment if that'll help your paranoia.

The gun only provides a false sense of security: everyone can tell me one or two stories about some who managed to save himself, kudos, but they will still ignore the facts that most of the time the attempt to use a gun turns what would be a simple mugging or theft into a serious, sad incident. And when they're done with you, they will take your gun with them.

But the truth is burglars are far from being the most common type of crime, it's a bit riskier for them so they'd rather have you unprepared just walking around, when you are not expecting it.

Suchfriends is right about stats, taking guns away from citizens ends up taking guns away from criminals in the long run.

Enough with comparing guns with cars, they're far from the same thing. Although cars can be dangerous, killing is not their purpose and not everyone has the right to drive: you need tests, you need a license, you need to renew it to make sure you're still apt. Everyone will agree that process is not even strict enough, so how can you say everyone is entitled to carry a gun without much fuss? If you ask me, 65% of the people driving shouldn't be allowed to do so, they should just fucking use public transportation and stop being a danger to other people. But I guess that doesn't count in the US, where you barely have a public transportation system in most areas.

I don't drive because I'm scared of what other people are capable of, at least I have that choice. But not with guns, I can be in the fucking supermarket when some asshole has an argument and shoots someone, I can't protect myself from that.

Even with all the strict process that takes up to 5/6 years to gain permission to carry a gun here, I've seen idiots shoot because of trafic arguments or drunken fights.

Allowing people to carry guns it's unsafe for society and it's not for the greater good. But Americans seem to be all about the individual: me, me, me and MY rights.

[GeneticKiss]

Good points, knox. I don't know the procedures for legally obtaining a firearm in the US, but I'm pretty sure you need a permit, and that usually requires some sort of test being passed. Maybe gun ownership should be looked at as a privilege instead of a right, which better fits the wording of my "revised" 2nd Amendment on the previous page. The problem is that by now everyone being able to get a gun if they want being an inalienable right of every human being is rather than a privilege reserved for those who can be smart and responsible about it is so ingrained into American culture that if anyone tried to change that, it would seem to some like they're fucking with Mom (as if non-Americans hatch from eggs or something), the flag, and apple pie.

I'm actually surprised at how mixed some of the responses have been in this thread. Being a board for a band that's shown mainly pacifist viewpoints, I figured I'd get a whole bunch of flaming and negative rep for supporting firearm ownership--then again, there are as many authority-hating nuts on the left (no offense Rob) as there are God-fearing rednecks on the right sometimes...

[Rob Instigator]

no offense taken. ha!

guns are for KILLING. No shit. Only the truly naive and deluded and maybe just those completely unaware of human nature and the tides of history could think that there does not, or will never again, exist a need to KILL SOMEONE or SOMETHING.

The only point of life is to stay alive to pass on life. If that means ending another life (to eat, for protection, self-defense) then so be it.


Like I have said before, I do not LIKE guns. I am scared around them (rightfully so, as everyone should be.) It is not an irrational fear, but a deep respect for the power in any weapon.

I will likely never own a gun.

BUt I would kill and die to uphold YOUR right to have one.

I would kill and die to uphold your right to TALK about hating guns too, if it came to that.

[Rob Instigator]

knox, the whole point behind "america" the country was to uphold the INDIVIDUAL's RIGHTS, against the state, against religious organizations, against tyranny, against their own government.
it has been eroded lately as people trade their rights away to feel "security."

[GeneticKiss]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

knox, the whole point behind "america" the country was to uphold the INDIVIDUAL's RIGHTS, against the state, against religious organizations, against tyranny, against their own government.
it has been eroded lately as people trade their rights away to feel "security."

People seem to have forgotten about that one...

[chicka]

People trying to defend Manson you must be kidding. I lived in the sixties and at no time did I ever feel like there would be an all out war between the blacks and the white. We had one bad incident in high school when thing came dangerously close to be a riot between the whites and blacks but we got together the most influential students of both colors and worked it out.

As for the gun laws Fresh Chop you are doing exactly what you are accusing Knox of doing pointing out a few incidents to make your side of the argument right. Sorry but there is nothing you can do to make me change my mind due to the number of incidents with kids. Yes I have had friends with guns, I've shot rifles, shotguns and pistols and yes target shooting is a blast but I would give up that fun in a heart beat to save kids as well as spouses who get shot first than the coward turns and shoots himself. Yes drug abuse is certainly the main contributing factor that's why imo all drugs should be legalized but that's a whole other subject/can of worms.

[Rob Instigator]

no one is defending manson. just stating that his "image" as portrayed by the media is severely skewed to use him as the scapegoat for everything that went bad in the 60's.
I don't know where you were chicka but manson was in california, quite the racially divided place, even today. It is actually more severely racially divided than most any other big city in USA. ask suchfriends.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by GeneticKiss

People seem to have forgotten about that one...

They have been fooled into thinking that religion provides freedom, and that the american founders were all religious sheep. The King of England was a titular head of a nation and a church, all at once.

[knox]

Originally Posted by GeneticKiss

Good points, knox. I don't know the procedures for legally obtaining a firearm in the US, but I'm pretty sure you need a permit, and that usually requires some sort of test being passed. Maybe gun ownership should be looked at as a privilege instead of a right, which better fits the wording of my "revised" 2nd Amendment on the previous page. The problem is that by now everyone being able to get a gun if they want being an inalienable right of every human being is rather than a privilege reserved for those who can be smart and responsible about it is so ingrained into American culture that if anyone tried to change that, it would seem to some like they're fucking with Mom (as if non-Americans hatch from eggs or something), the flag, and apple pie.

I'm actually surprised at how mixed some of the responses have been in this thread. Being a board for a band that's shown mainly pacifist viewpoints, I figured I'd get a whole bunch of flaming and negative rep for supporting firearm ownership--then again, there are as many authority-hating nuts on the left (no offense Rob) as there are God-fearing rednecks on the right sometimes...

Recently, I've had lots and lots of surprised regarding SY fans. I guess I assumed they agreed with the band's viewpoints but I've been finding the oddest things on the board: blatant sexism, racism, people supporting guns and war, etc.

Anyway, back to the subject. Yes, driving is not a RIGHT, it's a permission granted by the State. That is because driving is portentially dangerous, someone's permit can be taken away at any time and has to be constantly renewed. I personally think that if public transportation is efficient, local authorities should consider stricter standards for issuing permits, and get less and less people driving, which would improve traffic, the number of accidents etc.

Driving is potentially dangerous, yes, but lots of people NEED to do it, killing is not the purpose of cars. I can think of very few valid reasons why someone would NEED a gun, in practical terms.

It's also scary that of all rights americans should be demanding: proper free health care, decent worker's laws (you don't even have paid vacations ensured by law or maternity leave !!!!????), more protection from banks and institutions, they will seem more eager to fight for their "right" to potentially shoot someone someday.

[Rob Instigator]

chicka, a person who is sick enough to want to kill their kids and themselves, will do it with or without a gun.

peopel drown their kids all the time. they also suffocate them, poison them, leave them in hot cars, etc...

[Rob Instigator]

why would you assume that a band's fans share the band's politics?

do you know that thurston and Kim and Lee and Steve and Mark abhor guns? You sure they don't own any?

I love the band FEAR more than nearly anything but I do not agree with most of Lee Ving's politics. doesn't change my love of the music.

No one is fighting for the right to shoot someone. They are fighting to keep the supposedly INALIANABLE right of self-defense, by whatever means necessary.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

knox, the whole point behind "america" the country was to uphold the INDIVIDUAL's RIGHTS, against the state, against religious organizations, against tyranny, against their own government.
it has been eroded lately as people trade their rights away to feel "security."

I think democracy is supposed to be something like, you can have your own individual rights AS LONG as you're not taking those rights away from someone.

Otherwise I could be throwing horse shit on people's houses and claiming it to be my individual right to self expression. Nah, carrying gun endangers other people's rights to live.

[hevusa]

We should make it more challenging than contracting a finger to kill someone in my opinion. Seems logical... but then again there is no logic in paranoid Jesusland.

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

why would you assume that a band's fans share the band's politics?

I always thought this of SY fans too, that they would fall under a certain basic criteria. Big disappointment seeing the schmucks on this board.

[GeneticKiss]

Originally Posted by knox

Recently, I've had lots and lots of surprised regarding SY fans. I guess I assumed they agreed with the band's viewpoints but I've been finding the oddest things on the board: blatant sexism, racism, people supporting guns and war, etc.

Not sure how you came to this conclusion...is it because there's a thread for hot girls but not ripped guys without a shirt? I think a gay boardie did post some guys in that thread. You can look if you want. Also back on the old no-subforum Fullerene board, we had a fairly lengthly "boys kissing boys" thread...

Really not sure where the racism charge comes from...

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

chicka, a person who is sick enough to want to kill their kids and themselves, will do it with or without a gun.

peopel drown their kids all the time. they also suffocate them, poison them, leave them in hot cars, etc...

You're wrong.

Suicidal people normally change their minds after a while, althought the passing thought might be constant they are able to resist it - because most of the time, they don't want to go through a painful slow death and would probably give up in the process. A gun provides someone (in the even of a depressive or psychotic episode) no chance to give up or even leave that state of mind. Other suicidals spend years trying to get hold of guns because they know the quickest surest way to die is shooting yourself in the head/heart.

All stats show suicides are more common when people can get hold of guns.
I've worked with people who tried and FAIL to commit suicide a couple of times, and always attempted to get hold of a gun, imagine what would have happened if they could.

In fact, since we're being honest in my teenage years I had severe depression. So I know you CANNOT control that and you need other people to help you. I tried to get hold of a gun, even going to the lenghts of talking to drug dealers about it, but it was too hard to get one.

I assure you, had I been able to get one or steal one from someone's house I would have done it and I wouldn't be here today.

Same goes for murder - no chance for self defense. I watch the news and most people I see are killed from a distance, from the back, when they are not expecting, no chance for defense. You have much better chances to defend yourself and to survive if you're stabbed or if the attacker has to come near you. Guns enable that sort of cowardice.

People die from travelling lost fucking bullets, they don't die because of knives flying in the air as they are walking the streets.

In fact, how many people kill each other because they are angry in the heat of the moment they fire a gun? I assure you if they had to get near and choke them/stab them/poison them they would probably reassess the consequences, or perhaps they wouldn't be so brave.

[radarmaker]

Originally Posted by GeneticKiss

Not sure how you came to this conclusion...

Try the recent Spice Girls thread for starters.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

I think democracy is supposed to be something like, you can have your own individual rights AS LONG as you're not taking those rights away from someone.

Otherwise I could be throwing horse shit on people's houses and claiming it to be my individual right to self expression. Nah, carrying gun endangers other people's rights to live.

the US was not founded for "democracy."

It was founded as a Representative Republic.

throwing horse shit CAN BE designated your right to self expression (like if you are throwing horse shit at the Mayor's house), but there are consequences.

using a gun is a right in USA. and there are consequences. people do go to jail for mis-use of guns all the time, or taking them to places forbidden by law (schools, churches, government buildings, hospitals etc)

owning a gun does not take away or infringe on anyone's rights.

There is no right to always be free of danger
there is no right to be free of offensive things/words/thoughts/people
there is no right to a life without deadly weapons around you. (for anything is a deadly weapon if used by someone with mad ninja skillz such as myself)

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

You're wrong.

Suicidal people normally change their minds after a while, althought the passing thought might be constant they are able to resist it - because most of the time, they don't want to go through a painful slow death and would probably give up in the process. A gun provides someone (in the even of a depressive or psychotic episode) no chance to give up or even leave that state of mind. Other suicidals spend years trying to get hold of guns because they know the quickest surest way to die is shooting yourself in the head/heart.

All stats show suicides are more common when people can get hold of guns.
I've worked with people who tried and FAIL to commit suicide a couple of times, and always attempted to get hold of a gun, imagine what would have happened if they could.

In fact, since we're being honest in my teenage years I had severe depression. So I know you CANNOT control that and you need other people to help you. I tried to get hold of a gun, even going to the lenghts of talking to drug dealers about it, but it was too hard to get one.

I assure you, had I been able to get one or steal one from someone's house I would have done it and I wouldn't be here today.

Same goes for murder - no chance for self defense. I watch the news and most people I see are killed from a distance, from the back, when they are not expecting, no chance for defense. You have much better chances to defend yourself and to survive if you're stabbed or if the attacker has to come near you. Guns enable that sort of cowardice.

People die from travelling lost fucking bullets, they don't die because of knives flying in the air as they are walking the streets.

In fact, how many people kill each other because they are angry in the heat of the moment they fire a gun? I assure you if they had to get near and choke them/stab them/poison them they would probably reassess the consequences, or perhaps they wouldn't be so brave.

so what? people die

peopel kill themselves all the time

it is their life to end as they see fit, whether we see them as "depressed" or "crazy" or "stupid" for doing so. (I do not. I deeply believe that we should be able to end our lives as we see fit.)

Most female suicides do NOT use guns. That is a fact. Mainly male suicides use messy methods like disembowling or gunfire.
How do you account for that? women that are out to end their life will do it most of the time with pills, or bleeding to death, or jumping off heights or any number of non-gun methods.

yet all these women (in US at least) have just as equal access to guns as the men.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by radarmaker

Try the recent Spice Girls thread for starters.

what happened on the spice girls thread?