It's also true that talented types develop or break through technical practices in order to express their talent, so there isn't a definite formula when it comes to having talent. Also, one of the main problems I find with a lot of musicians, especially when they play live, is that they don't seem to have practiced on their instruments enough. True, there is the other route, the one where someone with great technical ability has no talent to back it all up, but so is the world of music.

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

creativity is NOT talent
a talented carpenter is not the same as a creative carpenter.

That's true. Being creative is not the same as creating talented works of art.
It's easier than ever to create, but it's there for us to see and hear how little of talent is on offer.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

let's replace the words creativity and talent with ideas and technical ability. I believe that I have great musical ideas, but lack the technical ability to put them into action. This isn't because I lack the technical ability of someone like Hendrix because the ideas I have wouldn't require me to play like him anyway. My lack of technical ability stems only from the fact that I am unable to perform these ideas in a way that does justice to the idea itself.

The complexity of the idea determines the level of technical ability required to achieve it. But not all great ideas are particularly complex, and so complex technical ability is no barometer of greatness. Proof being someone like Yngwie Malmsteen.

Jimi Hendrix was great because his ideas were great and his playing matched the idea.
By the logic of my argument though, the same could be said of Dee Dee Ramone or Blixa Bargeld.

This isn't to say that someone who has an idea to just thrash about on a guitar is great simply because they have the technical ability to do so. The idea itself is crap, so they as guitarists will never progress beyond crapness.

So true.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

talent is not equivalent to technical ability

You're right, but unlike technical ability, talent is unquantifiable. When we listen to Jimi Hendrix are we listening to someone with talent or someone with a determination to surpass themselves through the constant effort of practice and learning? Ideas are less problematic in that they are recognisable only once they are externalised and judgable only as a consequence of the person externalising it having the technical ability to do that idea justice.

Of course, we're back to the old problem of what determines whether an idea is great or not - but let's move on from that.

EDIT - Ignore this post. I just read through it and disagree with it wholeheartedly.

Originally Posted by pbradley

^ более влиятельными мне, по крайней мере, есть время для лекарств и есть время быть здоровыми и jimi hendrix делает любовь marilyn останки! !

Your post makes more sense in Russian.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Of course, we're back to the old problem of what determines whether an idea is great or not - but let's move on from that.

Ideas prove their right of existing when they are put into practice, and in no other context they can possibly justify their existence. Even with music, it transpires when something is simply not working or it hasn't worked. It might take years or even centuries, but if they aren't valid ideas, someone will come along to put them in their right context. I have been listening to a lot of music that I thought was good to ok in the 80's recently, and it's scary how much of it has aged badly, for one reason or another.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

I have been listening to a lot of music that I thought was good to ok in the 80's recently, and it's scary how much of it has aged badly, for one reason or another.

I was having a discussion with someone about that the other day. What if something was good in the 80s suddenly sounds crap now? Does that mean that it was always crap, that it was ok for it's time but has now been proven to be crap or that it really is good but that right now we're unable to recognise it as such?

This happens with art that goes in and out of favour.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Diesel

if jimi isn't the best then who is?

I thought we all agreed it was Lenny Kravitz.

[Rob Instigator]

That is a very good question demonrail666, expounding on what srramkrop stated.

maybe you should start another thread? I coudl see this one being well read and thouroughly posted on.

as far as older music goes there are three posibilities that I can see right now

either

A) The music was crap, and your taste was crap too at the time which is why you liked it. (bands FOR ME that apply to this are shit like Motley Crue, jesus jones, Dokken)

B) The music was good but your tastes have changed and now you do not like that kind of music anymore

C) the music has been overplayed and just sounds so dated and un-fresh that you cannot extract pleasure from it.

It could be that some the elements in it were valid, but it was produced in a way that was way too much of its time to make it for longevity. Take bands like Strawberry Switchblade: While I don't mind their music and I even find myself singing alongto some of it, they are trapped into a decade with no escape door to turn to. Same can be said for a lot of Jimi Hendrix's music and even most of The Velvet Underground's records, at this point. With the possible exception of a couple of songs on the first album and a few more on White Light White Heat, they sound like they were produced in the sixties, not now.

Edit -Demonrail

[demonrail666]

Another way of thinking is that rather than our tastes progressing, as we all like to think that they do, maybe at times they regress.

I used to think that Swans were a fantastic band. Now, when I listen to something like Greed I find it to be the over-indulgent sound of a bunch of juvenile misery-mongers.

Have I come to some kind of great truth about Swans, or am I just being intellectually or emotionally lazy in my old age?

People can come to like or dislike certain types of music for all kinds of reasons, not always for purely musical reasons.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Diesel

wait, i still love chicken kebabs the same way i did 9 years ago.... so i conclude that my ears must be fecking snobs.

Weird, just finished a chicken doner about half an hour ago. As good as it ever was. Some things will never change.

Eating a large chicken doner with extra chilli sauce while listening to Exile on Main Street. Now THAT's timeless right there!

People's minds are faster than notes, that's a fact. It's us who create them, therefore our needs and envoirements determine if they really have a place, regardless of how much one person might get attached to a band or piece of music. If they don't gel with the general mood (not the personal, mind) they die. I can't see it in any other way than this.

Edit - Damian

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Another way of thinking is that rather than our tastes progressing, as we all like to think that they do, maybe at times they regress.

I used to think that Swans were a fantastic band. Now, when I listen to something like Greed I find it to be the over-indulgent sound of a bunch of juvenile misery-mongers.

Have I come to some kind of great truth about Swans, or am I just being intellectually or emotionally lazy in my old age?

People can come to like or dislike certain types of music for all kinds of reasons, not always for purely musical reasons.

I think you may have actually sprung into a truth about the swans. boring bboring are the swans. music to die by

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

People's minds are faster than notes, that's a fact. It's us who create them, therefore our needs and envoirements determine if they really have a place, regardless of how much one person might get attached to a band or piece of music. If they don't gel with the general mood (not the personal, mind) they die. I can't see it in any other way than this.

Edit - Damian

I think you're basically right. Things go totally out of favour when they fail to gel with a mass consciousness or zeitgeist. I suppose that what I'm saying is that just because something fails to connect with a general mood at any given time doesn't necessarily make it bad.

I'm gonna be a film snob here and say that, given experiences I've had recently, it's fair to suggest that Robert Bresson films bore current audiences rigid. That's not the fault of Bresson or his films, it's the fault of an increasingly stupid population.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I think you're basically right. Things go totally out of favour when they fail to gel with a mass consciousness or zeitgeist. I suppose that what I'm saying is that just because something fails to connect with a general mood at any given time doesn't necessarily make it bad.

I'm gonna be a film snob here and say that, given experiences I've had recently, it's fair to suggest that Robert Bresson films bore current audiences rigid. That's not the fault of Bresson or his films, it's the fault of an increasingly stupid population.

Totally. Western societies are blind to the point of not recognizing when a pack of goodies has been thrown over their heads. That's the mistery of the human kind. I'll write a song about it. It will go like this:

Doo doo do do do dooooo do.

Dodo dodo dodo dododo!

Totally Diesel! Let's find the drummer and wee sorhead.

I'm going to write it in a language that is totally unknown. Here's the first verse:

GGdhhhdi^^^ ^^^......^^^????


<<<<<? <<<<<<???? <<<<<?????? ??????!!!



Do you like it?

[demonrail666]

Scaremplop- It's like right now, Blondie are talked about as though they're the best band since sliced bread. I'm not saying Blondie are bad at all, but it's obvious that there's something about them that makes them connect with today's audience. During the 90s you couldn't GIVE Blondie records away. The same with Black Sabbath.

A few years ago you couldn't move for people salivating over Big Star, now they're lucky to get even a mention.

...Fuck it. I'm turning into a one man promo vehicle for all things Alex Chilton here.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Diesel

my 40 something lesbo wimbledon attending auntie

I'll bet she hates chicken doners too.