[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by notyourfiend

btw i was kinda doing this post as a test to see how many people could talk about the band without mentioning her weight.

why is armpit hair gross on women as opposed to men? i have armpit hair which i haven't shaved for years. i'm also technically overweight. and you know what, i fucking love it!

i went to the show - stood in the front row. met beth ditto afterward. she gave me a giant hug. it was amazing.

i was going thru this mild-hatefest thread wondering what to post and ran into this one by you-- seems the most appropriate place to respond.

about the band- it's alright, i don't love it, but if you do, enjoy!

armpits: it's up to one's personal taste. i personally do not like hairy pits, but i understand women's pits are big in germany. o well. everyone like something different. you like pits, i don't, i like steak, you're vegetarian, if we all liked the same we'd all be in love with the same person (probably true in the case of my perpetual crush on carrie brownstein, but that's not the same, right?).

re: weight-- enjoy yourself, who gives a shit about what others think. same as pits.

a funny thing, i think i remember i had a drunken discussion recently w/ satana about the secret delights of "visually interesting" people. i posited she's overly focused on sight, and sight is well and good, but how do you account for smell & taste & touch & all that other good stuff in an image-based culture? anyway, she told me off i think, i had a good laugh-- thread's buried somewhere.

if you want to experience further displeasure with misogynistic discussions here, you should try starting a thread about le tigre!!

[Glice]

Originally Posted by infinitemusic

Thanks Glice, I really need that daily dose of pop shit pandering from you IN EVERY FUCKING THREAD

Fuck off you useless cunt.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by infinitemusic

Well, I think that "Anti-Orgasm" has some politics in it. Also, sure most bands might be "against" fascism, but they don't write songs about it. And do you even remember the lyrics to that song, because it talks about a lot of political issues that were going on at the time.. almost like it was an effort to get their fans to look it up and see what was going on in the political world at the time.

Ok, fair point. The point I was making about 'youth against fascism' is more that, although there are 'real-world' politics in that song, the very notion of being against fascism is latent in pretty much everything except for fascist bands; even people like Skrewdriver sometimes deny being fascist. I was more using the concept of being 'against fascism' as a hook, rather than that song in particular 'proving' whatever sprurious point I was making a whole 2 days ago.

And of course you would post a link to Miley Cyrus. How is that any different or better from any punk band that you hate, beside the fact that it's a shitty pop song with terrible singing and lyrics that are even worse than anything by the millions of Black Flag wannabes that churn out similar garbage?

The difference is that I like it; the difference is that Miley Cyrus speaks to literally 10s of millions of children across the world, while Black Flag significantly fewer. I wouldn't ever make a political beacon out of Cyrus, nor is there any point my defending my liking of her (I like her, you don't, that's life etc) but I was using an allusion to empirical statistics to illustrate her influence. I don't honestly believe that she's going to bring about global revolution, but she's paradigmatic of a certain trend in mainstream culture. I still hate punk, but that's neither here nor there.

Well that depends on whether they get those kids- who are the only ones who can change anything, since the privileged are the only ones who can really affect change- to do anything about it or change their ways.

No. Absolutely not. There is absolutely no way you're pulling that petty bourgeouis shit on me. The 'working class' are by no means lumpen proles, party but powerless to the changes made by the ruling overlords. The change comes about (if it comes about, when it comes about, if a change is needed) as a result of everyone, not just the priveleged classes.

And notyourfriend is right, almost all punk was middle class.

I don't think that's true. Not in Britain at least. But there's a huge difference between bands that did make it and bands that didn't (the latter of which there are legions more). Punk is by no means a 'working class' thing, but when it works it works because it seeks to break down the class barriers - everyone comes along for a good time, regardless of who they are. I'd argue that the more ostensibly a-political rave scene does this better, but that's neither here nor there.

I've never listened to Fugazi and don't plan to.

Good on you.

[infinitemusic]

Originally Posted by Glice

Ok, fair point. The point I was making about 'youth against fascism' is more that, although there are 'real-world' politics in that song, the very notion of being against fascism is latent in pretty much everything except for fascist bands; even people like Skrewdriver sometimes deny being fascist. I was more using the concept of being 'against fascism' as a hook, rather than that song in particular 'proving' whatever sprurious point I was making a whole 2 days ago.

I don't really see why that matters at all. And not only that, but I totally disagree. There's no such thing as "latent" anti-fascism. Most bands, I'm sure, have never even thought about fascism, let alone where they stand on the idea. And plenty of them probably don't even know what fascism actually is. And Skrewdriver, which I'm guessing is one of the fascist bands your talking about, actually has a place in the whole fascist rock band thing, for or against it. Not many bands do. It's just like saying that because someone in the band is gay, that makes it a "gay band". It doesn't.

The difference is that I like it; the difference is that Miley Cyrus speaks to literally 10s of millions of children across the world, while Black Flag significantly fewer. I wouldn't ever make a political beacon out of Cyrus, nor is there any point my defending my liking of her (I like her, you don't, that's life etc) but I was using an allusion to empirical statistics to illustrate her influence. I don't honestly believe that she's going to bring about global revolution, but she's paradigmatic of a certain trend in mainstream culture. I still hate punk, but that's neither here nor there.

What point are you even trying to make? Just because you like Miley's music and millions of retarded middle class white preteens agree with you, you think that her music is somehow more valid? All of your points against Punk music, which I agree with, by the way, go tens of millions of times more for her music. After thinking about it, I really don't think you do have a point to make and, frankly, the fact that you don't like Fugazi makes me think they might be good since you listen to the absolute shittiest music on the planet and think you're special because of it.

I think the problem I always have with the idea of political music is that Fugazi will always be the shittest band I can think of. So boorishly American in their opposition, it makes me wonder if this won't turn out to be the most politically influential song from an American in years to come.

How does this not apply to all the bullshit music you listen to? And for the record, I like pop music a lot. Just ... good pop music.

No. Absolutely not. There is absolutely no way you're pulling that petty bourgeouis shit on me. The 'working class' are by no means lumpen proles, party but powerless to the changes made by the ruling overlords. The change comes about (if it comes about, when it comes about, if a change is needed) as a result of everyone, not just the priveleged classes.

Give some examples. Historically it seems that the only way the underclass can change anything is through violent conflict because of the inherent inequalities due to their lack of money. It really doesn't seem to be any different now. Why do you think I'm wrong?

I don't think that's true. Not in Britain at least. But there's a huge difference between bands that did make it and bands that didn't (the latter of which there are legions more). Punk is by no means a 'working class' thing, but when it works it works because it seeks to break down the class barriers - everyone comes along for a good time, regardless of who they are. I'd argue that the more ostensibly a-political rave scene does this better, but that's neither here nor there.

I don't know anything about Britain and wasn't talking about it because I don't live there or really care about their culture in regards to this discussion. But for what it's worth, Britain's version of punk always struck me as even more hilariously posturing than America's. The Sex Pistols are a perfect example of that. They dressed and acted in a way that had no purpose other than to get attention, and their whole "we hate rock" shtick was funny, but their music is nothing special or different from the rock they supposedly hated, except possibly lyrically. Even then they fuck it up because they wrote shitty lyrics.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by infinitemusic

Most bands, I'm sure, have never even thought about fascism, let alone where they stand on the idea.

There's no way you and I are going to agree on this point. I'm surprised you think that, but I can't change your mind. I will say that everyone I know who makes music, without exception, is on the left and, if pushed (and only a little nudge) would immediately decry fascism. But like I say, if you think the above, I'm not going to change it.

What point are you even trying to make?

It was a small one. Miley Cyrus speaks to a lot of people. To repeat, I'm not - that's NOT - making a comment on the quality or otherwise of her music.

Just because you like Miley's music and millions of retarded middle class white preteens agree with you, you think that her music is somehow more valid?

Absolutely not. But I wasn't talking aesthetic quality (you see how I've re-iterated that twice now?)

...frankly, the fact that you don't like Fugazi makes me think they might be good since you listen to the absolute shittiest music on the planet and think you're special because of it.

I don't. Nice flaming though.

How does this not apply to all the bullshit music you listen to? And for the record, I like pop music a lot. Just ... good pop music.

It almost certain does apply to the bullshit music I listen to. Nice flaming, by the way.

Give some examples. Historically it seems that the only way the underclass can change anything is through violent conflict because of the inherent inequalities due to their lack of money. It really doesn't seem to be any different now. Why do you think I'm wrong?

Again. There's no point my disagreeing because you've clearly made up your mind. And patronised large slews of people by characterising them as violent insurrectionists. I'm reading a book on the Lollards at the moment.

I don't know anything about Britain and wasn't talking about it because I don't live there or really care about their culture in regards to this discussion. But for what it's worth, Britain's version of punk always struck me as even more hilariously posturing than America's.

Yeah, I agree with your aesthetic points about British punk. I don't really go for punk myself either. But I know that a lot of British punk bands came from pub rock bands, and there's masses of non-middle class punks. Steve Ignorant, Joe Strummer, Sid Vicious... whatever.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Glice

I will say that everyone I know who makes music, without exception, is on the left and, if pushed (and only a little nudge) would immediately decry fascism.

This isn't actually true now I come to think of it, but there are far more I know on the left than not.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by infinitemusic

Yeah, Knox has a problem with that. You are boring.. all of your posts are basically retarded. You aren't actually trying to discuss whatever the fuck this thread is about, obviously


Well, I think that "Anti-Orgasm" has some politics in it. Also, sure most bands might be "against" fascism, but they don't write songs about it. And do you even remember the lyrics to that song, because it talks about a lot of political issues that were going on at the time.. almost like it was an effort to get their fans to look it up and see what was going on in the political world at the time.

And of course you would post a link to Miley Cyrus. How is that any different or better from any punk band that you hate, beside the fact that it's a shitty pop song with terrible singing and lyrics that are even worse than anything by the millions of Black Flag wannabes that churn out similar garbage?


Well that depends on whether they get those kids- who are the only ones who can change anything, since the privileged are the only ones who can really affect change- to do anything about it or change their ways.

And notyourfriend is right, almost all punk was middle class.

I've never listened to Fugazi and don't plan to.

you sure have a way of sparking discussion. EAT IT!

It should also be noted that infinitemusic, notyourfiend and knox have got fuck all to say about music and politics, but like to ''make one think'' they hide some brilliant, insightful opinions about it.

[Genteel Death]

[quote=infinitemusic]I don't really see why that matters at all. And not only that, but I totally disagree. There's no such thing as "latent" anti-fascism. Most bands, I'm sure, have never even thought about fascism, let alone where they stand on the idea. And plenty of them probably don't even know what fascism actually is. And Skrewdriver, which I'm guessing is one of the fascist bands your talking about, actually has a place in the whole fascist rock band thing, for or against it. Not many bands do. It's just like saying that because someone in the band is gay, that makes it a "gay band". It doesn't.


Rubbish (mostly). There is such a thing as latent fascism, otherwise how do you think the nazis/fascists would have managed to recruit public consensus in the first place? By that I mean that a political leadership imposes itself better on the less formed political minds of the general public, therefore a latent, easily-manipulated form of fascist ideas in your average working class person is the perfect recruitment ground for any extremism of sort. Hence a very non-latent anti-fascist response from opposing (not necessarily in agreement, mind) factions too, be it in the form of self-financed political activity, or some of the theatrical ways of government politics. The fact that (some) music can benefit, for ideas and motivation, from the results of actual political agendas, is only a reflection of more complex matters at hand. Like it or not.

What point are you even trying to make? Just because you like Miley's music and millions of retarded middle class white preteens agree with you, you think that her music is somehow more valid? All of your points against Punk music, which I agree with, by the way, go tens of millions of times more for her music. After thinking about it, I really don't think you do have a point to make and, frankly, the fact that you don't like Fugazi makes me think they might be good since you listen to the absolute shittiest music on the planet and think you're special because of it.


And what is the point you are trying to make? Just because someone has an opinion about stuff, you base your judgement of it on their liking some pop band or other? Isn't that a prerogative of fascism itself?


How does this not apply to all the bullshit music you listen to? And for the record, I like pop music a lot. Just ... good pop music.
List the ''good pop music'' you like on here, please. Curious.


Give some examples. Historically it seems that the only way the underclass can change anything is through violent conflict because of the inherent inequalities due to their lack of money. It really doesn't seem to be any different now. Why do you think I'm wrong?

Nonsense. You'll find that many a form of revolutionary ideas find the support of wealthy patrons, and for the most part find the minds of educated, middle class (like many of you Americans seem to think it is right to refer to them) people contributing their fuelling. Marx, Engels, Lenin etc, not exactly working class people, even though their work was (and still remains) directed towards the emancipation of the struggling class. None of them advocated the use of violence, unless it is necessary in order to defend the work of revolutionaries in critical, and tension-filled, moments that favour the overthrowing of the capitalist system.


quote]

...

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by knox

what. there is a way to try and deny or ignore it, but there really isnt a way to live in which politics is not influencing your life.

Way to state the FUCKING obvious! How long did it take you to think that one up, you worthless idiot?

[notyourfiend]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

if you want to experience further displeasure with misogynistic discussions here, you should try starting a thread about le tigre!!

i still have a wee bit of hope in the humanity of this board, i'm not about to fuck it up by mentioning le tigre...

[notyourfiend]

Originally Posted by pbradley

Well, no, I think that is a misrepresentation of my opinion. I meant in my first reply on the subject to explain that I believe that it is a matter of ethical sentiment that connects music to politics. Political music that lacks an ethics also lack a pathos. As it were, my taste in music is centered around pathos, which might be why I am such a prick against objective criterias of quality. In what might be complete contrast to the slogan that "the personal is political," I believe that the political in relation to the individual is the making of the personal into the impersonal in order to influence other persons. I think the value of music on politics is its ability to articulate sentiment in a way sloganeering simply cannot match. Artistic endeavor that engages in the political (with the ethical sentiment as an assumed premise) is entirely possible but I think it fails both as an artistic endeavor and as a political endeavor.

To be 100% honest, I don't quite understand the point that you are trying to make.

But I think that people are misunderstanding what "the personal is political" means.

The personal is political claims that systems of power, morality etc. are internalized and that subjects become self-regulating.To share one's experiences/ to talk back is inherently a political act. Thus, to make music which addresses one's own experience is inherently a political act.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

It should also be noted that infinitemusic, notyourfiend and knox have got fuck all to say about music and politics, but like to ''make one think'' they hide some brilliant, insightful opinions about it.

I would disagree, but only insofar as I think notyourfiend hasn't really entirely represented herself, knox got bogged down in a slanging match and didn't represent herself fairly. infinitemusic is clearly a fuckcandle though.

[notyourfiend]

Originally Posted by Glice

I would disagree, but only insofar as I think notyourfiend hasn't really entirely represented herself, knox got bogged down in a slanging match and didn't represent herself fairly. infinitemusic is clearly a fuckcandle though.

To be perfectly honest, I've kinda been skimming a large chunk of this thread and replying to what sticks out the most. It's been a busy week/ weekend.

That being said, I think that you Genteel Death is just arguing for the sake of it. Although nothing is wrong with presenting a challenge.

I have also picked up that I am discussing the term "political" in a different light that most - I consider it to be a political action whenever somebody does anything that challenges the systems around them, even if that action is seemingly small and the person is doing it without any political intent. Most creative action is political; art and music also have the power to make people question, reconsider and see other possibilities.

Case in point - Sonic Youth. When I first heard the Youth's warped guitars/noise feed backs (namely, Starfield Road) I was blown away because I never knew anything like that could insist. They completley changed my perspective on what the bounds of music could be. That was political. It's a different type of political than, say, the Gossip talking about gay rights or Bob Dylan writing protest songs, but it was still political.

[Genteel Death]

This thread was started 4 days ago. It's only now that notyourfriend is explaining herself a bit more clearly, unlike knox. Infinitemusic can fuck off, basically. And what would make one think that I would post on a thread to argue for the sake of it more than her is beyond me.

[Rob Instigator]

Le Tigre next level politicos! Like the new jello biafra!
moustaches for all the ladies!

 

[notyourfiend]

^ i dont think that j.d. samson goes by female pronouns anymore.

also, i'd like to add to my previous post about all music being political.

i think that even if music is "speaking to the crowd" and not necessarily out there to evoke new ideas, it can still be political if it addresses the experiences of the listeners. although the anti-bush ban of gay marriage mentality which is the basis of the gossip's "standing in the way of control" is not exactly revolutionary, it provides a sense of solitary to queer listeners who no longer feel quite as alone. empowerment is also political. using the logic in my earlier post, empowerment does make people think differently about themselves so yeah, that is totally political.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by notyourfiend

To be 100% honest, I don't quite understand the point that you are trying to make.

But I think that people are misunderstanding what "the personal is political" means.

The personal is political claims that systems of power, morality etc. are internalized and that subjects become self-regulating.To share one's experiences/ to talk back is inherently a political act. Thus, to make music which addresses one's own experience is inherently a political act.

Foucault, should have assumed. However, I think you are defining politics differently than I am. It reads as though, as you take it, political is simply the influence of one's experience upon another, whereas I have been considering the decision-making discourse of groups of people. Where I disagree is the idea that any influence upon another person is political, but rather, I think that it's only a particular kind of influence. I think there are other means of influence that speak beyond political and transcend internalized systems of morality, and music is one. I do not consider empathy, sympathy, antipathy or anything else of sentimental influence to be political as to be political formulates these sentiments into rational arguments to be engaged with political discourse. Music should be concerned with beauty, existence, suffering, etc. in themselves as well as within contemporary life but in a way that precedes discursive articulation and analytical argumentation. Those things should be left to the listener to decide upon.

[westernquinoxrox]

i thut feminism wuz a joke

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by westernquinoxrox

i thut feminism wuz a joke

But then you would, wouldn't you? Running out of ideas, westernquinoxrox?

[SONIC GAIL]