[Satan]

pole dancing is great exercise

[knox]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

that's a bit of an outdated assumption dear, i know plenty of males who raise children. friend of mine has 5 kids (one his, 4 adopted), his wife is the main breadwinner and he does the children police. ok, enough with the anecdotal evidence-- more and more, because of socioeconomic changes (i even consider economy as much more impactful than "culture"), male parents are taking up greater roles in child rearing. of course some people try to naturalize their choices by saying "oh, i'ts in my genes not to give a shit". well to an extent that is true-- but only to an extent.

of course not all is explained by biology-- only maybe about 90%. economy & class provides 9% and the 1% extra is where we can alter course, more or less, provided we are aware and not completely plastered or numbed out with pills and tv.

1% with compound interest can accumulate to a whole lot in time. but let's not dream that we can reeducate the human population to be holy saints within the space of a generation. mao tried, and look what happened.

you know plenty of males who raise children and you see a lof of change happening. then again, you are probably based on what you have seen in your corner of the western developed world, which does not equal the reality for the majority at all.

like i said, if im going to base my opinions in the environment in which i live, i would say society is not sexist or homophobic, but i gotta see beyond that.

changes are good yes, but we can't assume the exception is the rule.

[Rob Instigator]

the majority of people live in china, where girl babies are snuffed out to allow for a male baby, and in India, where the women are foxy.

[Satan]

indian women are beautiful.

[pbradley]

I don't know exactly what you are all talking about now but, once, a feminist history major (that is, a history major that self-identified as a feminist) asked me if I'm gay because I didn't want to hook up with her. Obviously, males are biologically driven at all times to sex, be it gay or straight. Obviously.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Glice

I really loathe !£"$%'s point about genetics and biology - not that I consider this a criticism of him, I just think it's very dangerous to be so prescriptive. I don't think it's that far-fetched to say that you can just as easily say men act like weightlifters 'because of testosterone' as you can say that some men are rapists for the same reason. The point being not that biology isn't a part of identity, but I don't think it forms a rationale, or defining epistemic.

no no, you missed the part where i said i wasn't being prescriptive, this is where scientificism is confused with science. my point is more subtle, maybe i didn't make that clear. i'm refuting the dangerous and naive notion that culture determines everything, but i'm not saying that biology dictates everything either.

scientificists (my term, i admit) are "naturalizers" in the sense that they misunderstand science as giving us ethical mandates, as an ersatz religion. "it's in your genes, go kill people"-- no. no no no. that is fucked and wrong. i loathe that as much too. same with people who say "you're a male, you have balls, you must go and fuck a woman and beget children". "you're a woman, nature commands that you raise children". fuck no. it's not a fucking legal mandate.

but there IS a lot of behavior that is bred over millions of years and there are instinctual urges and behaviors that are central to what we are. now remember, in evolution theory diversity and mutation play a very important role, it's not all squares and straight lines. evolution is based on bad copies. so there is a genetic drift that is always taking us to new places. and that is vital to our survival-- getting stuck means death.

now, like with domesticated animals, you can cut a bull's testes and make him pull a plow for the rest of his life. a lot of our berserker genes now watch or play sports and trade in the stock market. removing those berserker genes completely is impossible-- you can only domesticate them and hope for the best.

so, culture bends the original genetic impulse, does not completely transform.

if neuroscience is telling us anything these days it's that kant was partially right-- we're not a tabula rasa, we have a lot of our knowledge preprogrammed from birth.

so even as we alter our education and social policies to obtain the results we want (before genetic engineering takes over), we need to take into account the raw material-- the raw material wasn't cooked up by the elite, the empire, the dead white male, the man, the schools-- the raw material is this huuuuge miasma of genes that we share with our ape cousins. 99% of it we share with chimps in fact.

[Satan]

tl;dr

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

you know plenty of males who raise children and you see a lof of change happening. then again, you are probably based on what you have seen in your corner of the western developed world, which does not equal the reality for the majority at all.

like i said, if im going to base my opinions in the environment in which i live, i would say society is not sexist or homophobic, but i gotta see beyond that.

changes are good yes, but we can't assume the exception is the rule.

those changes have more to do with structural economic changes. in my own 3rd world country of birth a lot has changed from my grandparent's generation based simply on the fact the needs of the economy change and that more women are in university careers today than there are men (same here in 'merica by the way). gender roles are mostly a matter of economics-- except in the land of the ayatollah where fuckwads rule by decree.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

those changes have more to do with structural economic changes. in my own 3rd world country of birth a lot has changed from my grandparent's generation based simply on the fact the needs of the economy change and that more women are in university careers today than there are men (same here in 'merica by the way). gender roles are mostly a matter of economics-- except in the land of the ayatollah where fuckwads rule by decree.

all you do is moan on about something. give it a rest your boring people.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Satan

tl;dr

ha ha-- wasn't directed at you, no worries.

[Rob Instigator]

gender issues are quite amorphous.
there are plenty of people to whom their gender is an inbred part of themselves. This is evident in the people who, though physically and gentically male or female, "feel" in their heads, ussually since a very young age, that their physical gender does not equate with their philosophical gender.

in those cases it is ussually cultural/societal pressures that act, and have acted, to keep these people in their respective physical gender, causing much mental trauma.

Many female feminists have strong reactions from women who deeply feel that they are nurturers/mothers first. these women has just as much right to be the typical "woman" as femenists have to ignore or challenge the typical "woman" role. Can there ever be a consensus between them?

[jon boy]

are you saying your inbred?

[Rob Instigator]

huh?

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

there are plenty of people to whom their gender is an inbred part of themselves.

case in point.

[automatic bzooty]

Originally Posted by jon boy

are you saying your inbred?

i think yr taking one word out of context brodudeski

[floatingslowly]

you've come a long way, baby.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by jon boy

case in point.

inbred, as in inherent from birth/conception.

Many people try to negate this aspect of gender to further their fight against homosexuals. They say that it is a "lifestyle" or a "choice" and can be eradicated through prayer, or church, or drugs or therapy.
yet these same people woudl never think their heterosexuality is anything but "god given". morons abound.

[Rob Instigator]

Kurt Vonnegut said in his SlaughterHhouse 5 that Trafalmadorians saw 7 genders in humans. There are people in southeast asia whose whole cultures believe there are 5 genders in humans.

where does the didactic western view of gender, and nearly everything else, come from if not western religiojns yes/no, good/bad division?

just curious.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by automatic bzooty

i think yr taking one word out of context brodudeski

he's a bit of a retard with words, but in this case he's just trying to get attention by being a pest-- he hates it when other people have fun.

i like long ranting threads with robinstigator, glice, pbradely, fiend, satana, & all manner of bordies-- & too bad sway is not here to dish out his "folk philosophy" ha ha ha. plus the bot flotterz to keep shit always slightly surreal.

so anyway, let's maybe continue.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by automatic bzooty

i think yr taking one word out of context brodudeski

no serious.