[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Severian

And Anti-Christ.

I actually don’t think I’ve seen Martyrs, but I’ve talked about it with people here, and my impression is that, yes, hella fucked up.

I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a movie as upsetting as Anti-Christ, especially since I watched it with my girlfriend during a casual horror movie binge, and it turned into a really fucking sick, horrid, dream-haunting experience neither of us will ever forget.

Trust me, I've seen both films and yes, Anti-Christ is fucked up but Martyrs is something else. The problem with talking about it and its notoriety is it inevitably translates as an "I dare you" statement. Just ignore it and move on. Life's hard enough as it is.

[TheDom]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

 

My Darling Clementine

Still my all-time favourite film

 

I don’t know who you are but, between this and Bresson, we may be the same. My favorite film as well.

I’m seeing you both on the political subtext of Ford but I am on my phone commuting to work and it’s hard to reply succinctly. I’ll get back on it though because I love this film with all my heart but I’ve never read anything overtly political in it like in “The Searchers”.

[evollove]

Joaquin Phoenix as Joker should finally yield a Batman movie worth watching. Scheduled for release in October.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by TheDom

I love this film with all my heart

I think that's the crux of it. Its greatness has nothing to do with any potential political reading. It's certainly not a sloganeering film. If anything, I think it's as much about Henry Fonda's performance as it si Ford's direction or ideology. That slow walk he takes with Clementine to the church. The awkwardness of their kiss at the end. The look he gives Doc Holliday during the Shakespeare recital when he realises he's dying. I know Ford will be forever associated with John Wayne but I think Fonda understood what Ford was about on a human level better than anyone.

And who'd have thought Victor Mature, of all people, would have a performance like that in him?

[!@#$%!]

ok this seems to have refresjed my proto-alzheimers

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

funny you mention him, just watched "my darling clementine" this past weekend and we thought it was pretty great-- it has a lot of funny moments for a gunslinging melodrama. sucka was pretty great at setting up his shots too, and the actors were great. yeah, some brown people stereotypes that can't be helped with the times, but we're old enough that we can laugh at them. actually, did you know that john ford was made an honorary navajo? funny and true. it was also funny to see tombstone, az, right around the corner from monument valley-- but you'd only know that if you know the area. anyway, some day you'll see for yourself, ha ha ha.

it’s from 5 years ago: http://sonicyouth.com/gossip/showpos...ostcount=17569

the undiscovered country part is elsewhere i will look

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Probably my favourite film of all time. It's historical inaccuracies are as irrelevant as they'd be in a piece of Greek myth and, as you say, the racism is just a mark of its age. It's the hugeness of its message that I love: the attempt to make a kind of American origin story out of hackneyed figures from history. Like the scene where Doc Holliday completes the 'undiscovered country' line from Hamlet. Of course that never actually happened but Ford invented it and in-so-doing managed to create an entire 'idea' of America, as a nation. Big stuff.

oh here it is

[demonrail666]

I'm amazed someone's actually made a screenshot of the exact moment when Fonda realises Doc Holliday is dying.

 

[!@#$%!]

in 2017

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i love ford as a master of the epic western and awesome old-timey action but in the end i have to reject some of his stuff on an ideological basis, in that i don't share his love of the empire and what wsome of his movies stand for.

in the case of the searchers, to me, it's saying that in order to protect the frontier home and save the white princess from the savages you need some sort of atrocious asshole, warts and all. a bit like "a few good men" but from the other side of the fence. "everything he's done, it's worth it"

today he'd be a trump voter.

[!@#$%!]

so demonyo what do you mean by “idea of America”? what idea is this?

[demonrail666]

I think in essence it's the one laid out by Frederick Turner in his Frontier thesis.

Although I'd never say his films are a simple reproduction of it.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by evollove

Joaquin Phoenix as Joker should finally yield a Batman movie worth watching. Scheduled for release in October.

Fuckin’ LOL

[Severian]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Trust me, I've seen both films and yes, Anti-Christ is fucked up but Martyrs is something else. The problem with talking about it and its notoriety is it inevitably translates as an "I dare you" statement. Just ignore it and move on. Life's hard enough as it is.

I understand and I do not feel dared and I will move on.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I think in essence it's the one laid out by Frederick Turner in his Frontier thesis.

Although I'd never say his films are a simple reproduction of it.

right so when you hear “the undiscovered country” you don’t hear “death” but it’s more “code” (so to speak) for “america, in the making”, correct?

or no?

i just wanna make sure i read what you mean.

hahaha anyway seems like i enjoyed that movie but that i remember fuck all has been quite a shock

[demonrail666]

I think it does both: it indicates Doc Holliday's death (literally and more metaphorically as an icon of the 'wild' west) but also the idea of a nation in the making. It could've just as easily been recited by Ethan in The Searchers.

The building of a church in Tombstone might at 1st seem to contradict the thesis but the rowdy dance they have suggests a West that's becoming civilised, but on its own terms. And Wyatt's brother Morgan suggests a frontier logic to the law at the OK Corral, when he kills the father of the Clantons after Wyatt tells him he can live but must leave Tombstone.

[TheDom]

Okay finally got to my computer.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I think that's the crux of it. Its greatness has nothing to do with any potential political reading. It's certainly not a sloganeering film. If anything, I think it's as much about Henry Fonda's performance as it si Ford's direction or ideology. That slow walk he takes with Clementine to the church. The awkwardness of their kiss at the end. The look he gives Doc Holliday during the Shakespeare recital when he realises he's dying. I know Ford will be forever associated with John Wayne but I think Fonda understood what Ford was about on a human level better than anyone.

And who'd have thought Victor Mature, of all people, would have a performance like that in him?

I 100% agree with this and I wish Ford's legacy could be purged from Wayne. All of the best Ford films either don't have Wayne or he's counterbalanced by another lead actor(s) i.e. Fonda in Fort Apache, Stewart in Liberty Valance and Stagecoach is basically an ensemble film.

That slow walk is exemplary on why I love the film so much.

Ford's politics can be a cause for contention at times, I agree (look at Cheyenne Autumn - sheesh!). However, I always see a bleak subtext to his Americana; no one is ever satisfied or redeemed. The 'idea of America' maybe represented with 'the undiscovered country' (which is more about Doc's death than anything, imo) or the building of Tombstone or any other town in the west. But I think Ford both celebrates it and questions it by setting up the hero (the individual) who has to bring law and 'society' but gains nothing in return. What good came of Earp avenging his brother and bringing this 'law' to the lawless land? He lost another brother, a family gets murdered in revenge, Doc and Chihuahua still die, and then he has to ride off alone with what remains of his family (he doesn't even get his cattle back!) and leaving Clementine, who also lost everyone she knew in the West, alone. Ultimately, I think Ford realizes that this idea of America could be great, in theory, but ultimately will still leave the individual unredeemed.

'in the case of the searchers, to me, it's saying that in order to protect the frontier home and save the white princess from the savages you need some sort of atrocious asshole, warts and all. a bit like "a few good men" but from the other side of the fence. "everything he's done, it's worth it"'

I could just have a bias because I love his films so much, but with what I said above in mind I question if 'it's worth it'. Ethan is an asshole and isn't doing anything for society; he is doing it for himself. So this 'saving of the white princess' is the product of the passion of selfish asshole (apt metaphor for the US maybe!). Sure, the family homestead is saved but everyone is just as alone and unredeemed as when the film started. The hope for a 'civilized society' is only hope in what may never come and, if it does come, it is still questionable if it will save them.

Another of his films that describe what I mean is 'The Long Grey Line'. I don't know if any of you have seen it but basically it's a military film about West Point and the main character (the 'Fordian hero') basically lives and dies at West Point while preparing people to die as soldiers (which they do) and watches his life and everything he loves drift away (it is also hinted that he is impotent). On the surface, yes, it does celebrate that the sacrifice of the individual for 'Murica is worth it (they throw him a parade - Yay! I guess?). But there is a tragedy in the fact that he is only a mere 'spectator' in his life suffocated and pacified by routine in the American myth. America rolls on at the expense of the individual.

I recognize that Ford was very patriotic and not afraid to hide it but I always see at least a hint of questioning the patriot's ideal.

Let me know if any of that makes any sense lol

[!@#$%!]

i have to hit the road tomorrow and wont be back till late so my full response will take a bit but—

the homestead is saved! civilization is restored! ethan rides into the sunset, hi-yo silver. he may be a monster, he may be a tortured fuck, but he serves a greater cause. what does it matter his motivation? he’s a soldier. soldiers sacrifice themselves. all is well!

sure there is more ambiguity throughout but the final scene leaves no doubt in my mind.

as for patriotism... ive interviewed a lot of native war veterans. things have changed a ton since the era of manifest destiny

leave you this for context but hope to catch up soon!

https://www.history.com/news/native-...ts-citizenship

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by TheDom

Okay finally got to my computer.



I 100% agree with this and I wish Ford's legacy could be purged from Wayne. All of the best Ford films either don't have Wayne or he's counterbalanced by another lead actor(s) i.e. Fonda in Fort Apache, Stewart in Liberty Valance and Stagecoach is basically an ensemble film.

That slow walk is exemplary on why I love the film so much.

Ford's politics can be a cause for contention at times, I agree (look at Cheyenne Autumn - sheesh!). However, I always see a bleak subtext to his Americana; no one is ever satisfied or redeemed. The 'idea of America' maybe represented with 'the undiscovered country' (which is more about Doc's death than anything, imo) or the building of Tombstone or any other town in the west. But I think Ford both celebrates it and questions it by setting up the hero (the individual) who has to bring law and 'society' but gains nothing in return. What good came of Earp avenging his brother and bringing this 'law' to the lawless land? He lost another brother, a family gets murdered in revenge, Doc and Chihuahua still die, and then he has to ride off alone with what remains of his family (he doesn't even get his cattle back!) and leaving Clementine, who also lost everyone she knew in the West, alone. Ultimately, I think Ford realizes that this idea of America could be great, in theory, but ultimately will still leave the individual unredeemed.

'in the case of the searchers, to me, it's saying that in order to protect the frontier home and save the white princess from the savages you need some sort of atrocious asshole, warts and all. a bit like "a few good men" but from the other side of the fence. "everything he's done, it's worth it"'

I could just have a bias because I love his films so much, but with what I said above in mind I question if 'it's worth it'. Ethan is an asshole and isn't doing anything for society; he is doing it for himself. So this 'saving of the white princess' is the product of the passion of selfish asshole (apt metaphor for the US maybe!). Sure, the family homestead is saved but everyone is just as alone and unredeemed as when the film started. The hope for a 'civilized society' is only hope in what may never come and, if it does come, it is still questionable if it will save them.

Another of his films that describe what I mean is 'The Long Grey Line'. I don't know if any of you have seen it but basically it's a military film about West Point and the main character (the 'Fordian hero') basically lives and dies at West Point while preparing people to die as soldiers (which they do) and watches his life and everything he loves drift away (it is also hinted that he is impotent). On the surface, yes, it does celebrate that the sacrifice of the individual for 'Murica is worth it (they throw him a parade - Yay! I guess?). But there is a tragedy in the fact that he is only a mere 'spectator' in his life suffocated and pacified by routine in the American myth. America rolls on at the expense of the individual.

I recognize that Ford was very patriotic and not afraid to hide it but I always see at least a hint of questioning the patriot's ideal.

Let me know if any of that makes any sense lol

I certainly agree that his attitude to the 'civilising' of the West was bitter-sweet. In Liberty Valance, the statement about the wilderness becoming a garden is undercut with a sadness at what had been lost in that process. But I'd say ultimately Ford was less interested in whether it was worth it than in the role that people who had no place in the new America would have in constructing it. Ringo in Stagecoach, Tom in Liberty Valance, Doc in Clementine, Ethan in The Searchers, etc.

The fly in the ointment that makes Ford westerns difficult to tie to a single convenient understanding is the fact that while the outlaw is pivotal in their contribution to progress, they do this by killing another outlaw. Doc helps Earp in defeating the Clantons, Tom shoots Liberty Valance, etc. So there's a 'good' outlaw, who does contribute to progress, but there's also a 'bad' irredeemable one who has to be defeated before that progress can take place. Not sure how that fits with any kind of general position on the role of the outlaw in the West, but that's not just a question for Ford's westerns but for the classical western in general. In Shane, Alan Ladd has to kill Jack Palance, and so on. Saying that, the 'good' outlaw invariably has a connection to a woman whereas the bad outlaw usually doesn't, which might be significant.

Re his army films (WW2 and cavalry), Peter Bogdanovich has argued (in an interview with Ford) that they take the position that the traditions of the army are greater than any individual. Ford refused to confirm or deny this but it seems like a fair reading.

[Dr. Eugene Felikson]

 

Ended up watching The Lobster on Netflix w my aunt n uncle last night. I hadn't seen this since its theatrical run, and I gotta say I still find it to be an awfully accurate depiction of how odd human interaction, dating in particular, is. The dialogue intentionally stilted and every romantic notion broken down to its coldest, most insincere form. Even the open ended ending sorta hints at how nobody will ever figure any of this out.

Love the Lobster, hated Dogtooth.

[!@#$%!]

just quickly, cuz long day— re-saw the final searchers scene on youtube, ethan arrives on horse, carries the lady to he front door, but he does not ride away gloriously, he walks instead, as the door slams behind him. yeah he does not participate of the festivities but how can he NOT be a hero. cmon. every community needs an ethan watching the wall. or was it the fence lolol.

anyway here is ethan

 

the more i think about it the more those 2 movies are related in my mind

what is huge is the shift in perspective over the decades—in the past, ethics were not required of him, just results. but now they are... or, both are ethical, but the value system has changed as to render the old order obsolete/unjust.

[ilduclo]

Victor Manure was an awesome actor. Watch After the Fox for the best self parody ever.