[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

just quickly, cuz long day— re-saw the final searchers scene on youtube, ethan arrives on horse, carries the lady to he front door, but he does not ride away gloriously, he walks instead, as the door slams behind him. yeah he does not participate of the festivities but how can he NOT be a hero. cmon. every community needs an ethan watching the wall. or was it the fence lolol.

anyway here is ethan

 

the more i think about it the more those 2 movies are related in my mind

what is huge is the shift in perspective over the decades—in the past, ethics were not required of him, just results. but now they are... or, both are ethical, but the value system has changed as to render the old order obsolete/unjust.

Ethan's a hero for me. Abso-fuckin-lutely! He keeps his own prejudices in check and gets the job done solely for the benefit of others.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Ethan's a hero for me. Abso-fuckin-lutely! He keeps his own prejudices in check and gets the job done solely for the benefit of others.

looks like im not driving out today after all lol. so...

yes! he is absolutely a hero in that sense. a real hero isn’t in it for the prizes and medals.

at the same time, he’s a very problematic hero.

i get that the point of ethan’s racism in the movie was to actually expose it, to show the attitudes that informed the american conquest of the west.

but his ordeal and redeeming quest ends up confusingly justifying them a little bit. or a lot. depending on who reads.

this being art not propaganda it has a measure of ambiguity that allows various readings. but even propaganda can be read different by different cultural groups.

consider that in the 50s the mainstream attitude towards indians was a lot like the movie—“savages” that needed to make way for american civilization. the western genre fed clearly into that ideology. so a lot of his early audience saw nothing problematic with it. to them ethan was a straight-up eagle scout. his racism, even before the main events, highly relatable.

the other thing is even if he arrives already as a racist former confederate soldier, his hatred throughout the search could be easily justified by the destruction of his family at the hands of scar. wouldn’t you? i would...

i’m not an ideologue so i can appreciate great art regardless of human flaws, and i know enough artists to know that anyone demanding purity from them is fucking delusional. by which i mean—our times. our whole moment in history. almost maoist. i don’t intend to engage in those trials.

so, anyway, i really see two currents at once going on here, and it confuses the fuck out of me. ethan is a hero. ethan is a monster. which is how life is most times.

but like i said, i live among the indians. so i see the frontier from the other side of the fence. nothing funny about martin kicking his “wife” down a hill. and that was ford, not ethan, who set up the “comedy” moment.

maybe ethan would put a bullet in my head too haaaa haaaa haaaaa. having “gone native”.

damn...

one group’s hero is another group’s genocidal murderer. and so history proceeds. and this... i think ford got. and showed. but... lol

anyway, john ford was not ethan just like jonathan demme is not hannibal lecter or aaron sorkin is not the asshole in guantanamo.

so i can appreciate ford’s mastery of his medium, and his efforts to reveal the destructive side the american frontier... but i think he did not go far enough in this, and to an extent catered to the prejudices of his audience, and being of his own time, could not help having some himself. for which we must forgive him. he was just an artist, not an all-knowing god.

at least he’s not d.w. griffith inventing modern cinema and at the same time proselytizing for white supremacy and the fucking kkk hahaha. but that’s for another day...

[demonrail666]

Ethan's a complex hero which only makes him and the film richer. The Searchers came towards the end of the classic era but its complexity (relative to that era) helped pave the way for the revisionists (Penn, Altman, etc) to come along and start deconstructing the myths according to contemporary values and events. The politics of Ford's films inevitably feel problematic when judged according to values formed in light of Vietnam and the Civil Rights era, but then so do a lot of revisionist westerns feel problematic now, when we consider say their treatment of women in light of the feminist-movement. And so on.

I'm just waiting for someone to finally adapt Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian. Then the shit is really gonna hit the fan.

[Rob Instigator]

However, George Lucas IS Jar-Jar Binks

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Ethan's a complex hero which only makes him and the film richer. The Searchers came towards the end of the classic era but its complexity (relative to that era) helped pave the way for the revisionists (Penn, Altman, etc) to come along and start deconstructing the myths according to contemporary values and events. The politics of Ford's films inevitably feel problematic when judged according to values formed in light of Vietnam and the Civil Rights era, but then so do a lot of revisionist westerns feel problematic now, when we consider say their treatment of women in light of the feminist-movement. And so on.

of course the complexity makes it richer, but its bias still leaves a bad taste in my mouth regardless. same way i can read quevedo and laugh and admire his incredible style but his antisemitic vitriol makes make me cringe.

anyway, just to pile it on (i have to, now) check this scene in clementine:

https://youtu.be/5UrcR_01-bM

did anyone notice?

the clip from 0:26 to 0:36 makes me puke in my mouth a little

ofc this is imperceptible to a lot of people

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

However, George Lucas IS Jar-Jar Binks

hahaha

i though he was jabba the hutt!

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

hahaha

i though he was jabba the hutt!

 

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

anyway, just to pile it on (i have to, now) check this scene in clementine:

https://youtu.be/5UrcR_01-bM

did anyone notice?

the clip from 0:26 to 0:36 makes me puke in my mouth a little

I always notice when the subservient, working-class brown man has to make way for the affluent white man without the white man even saying "excuse me." Brown people are to know their place in 'merica.....

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I always notice when the subservient, working-class brown man has to make way for the affluent white man without the white man even saying "excuse me." Brown people are to know their place in 'merica.....

YEEEEES MY FRIEND YEEEEEEES

these are the things that make me reach for my revolver

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ofc this is imperceptible to a lot of people

It isn't imperceptible. I just don't look for a Western to provide a true or even-handed version of history. Nor do I think Ford was remotely interested in providing one. Westerns at that time were full of lazy racial stereotypes. Fuck, Hollywood at that time was full of racial stereotypes. I don't think anyone who loves MDC in 2019 is oblivious to it. They just contextualise it in terms of the time it was made and concentrate on the things that actually made them fall in love with it in the 1st place ... which I'm sure had absolutely nothing to do with its rather cringey representation of Mexicans.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

It isn't imperceptible. I just don't look for a Western to provide a true or even-handed version of history. Nor do I think Ford was remotely interested in providing one. Westerns at that time were full of lazy racial stereotypes. Fuck, Hollywood at that time was full of racial stereotypes. I don't think anyone who loves MDC in 2019 is oblivious to it. They just contextualise it in terms of the time it was made and concentrate on the things that actually made them fall in love with it in the 1st place ... which I'm sure had absolutely nothing to do with its rather cringey representation of Mexicans.

well neither do i (look for even-handed depictions), but it doesn’t mean i’m gonna be impervious to it.

like i said, im not gonna be here like a maoist tribunal to dismiss ford from film history (some people would be very willing to do that on impossible ideological purity grounds)

but at the same time it’s hard to look away and ignore that this is the way racism perpetuates itself, by naturalizing these little atrocities we can now see so clearly.

i mean, this is how the heroes here establish themselves as the alphas in the room. by pushing some mexicans around. this is not incidental or accidental, and it is very difficult to pretend it’s not there.

same as watching “manhattan” in the 2010s instead of the 1980s: it just doesn’t go down the same way.

anyway, i have similar problems with zulu, which is a movie which at one level i absolutely love, and at another level makes me think “wtf” with its depiction of brave, honorable, intelligent... faceless africans, ha haha. but such a good movie. but wtf. but such a good movie... etc.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I always notice when the subservient, working-class brown man has to make way for the affluent white man without the white man even saying "excuse me."

It's Doc bloody Holliday! I don't remember him saying "excuse me" to anyone (rich, poor, brown, white, or otherwise) for the entire duration of the film.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

It's Doc bloody Holliday! I don't remember him saying "excuse me" to anyone (rich, poor, brown, white, or otherwise) for the entire duration of the film.

exactly. murderer.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

It isn't imperceptible. I just don't look for a Western to provide a true or even-handed version of history. Nor do I think Ford was remotely interested in providing one. Westerns at that time were full of lazy racial stereotypes. Fuck, Hollywood at that time was full of racial stereotypes. I don't think anyone who loves MDC in 2019 is oblivious to it. They just contextualise it in terms of the time it was made and concentrate on the things that actually made them fall in love with it in the 1st place ... which I'm sure had absolutely nothing to do with its rather cringey representation of Mexicans.

this is the WHOLE POINT! That white people in USA are able to live lives heedless of the sufferings and troubles of the brown people around them.



I hate watching TV shows and movies about rich white people problems. Their "problems" are ridiculous, and of little relevance to working people of any color. This is the plot of 80% of sitcoms on TV, overly wealthy white folks dealing with "problems" that are actually just inconveniences.


I remember watching Good Times and crying when James Evans Sr. keeps getting turned down for work. white folks on TV cry when their latte comes out with too little foam.

[Rob Instigator]

Avengers Endgame spoiler theory - You know how Dr. Strange "looked" into over 150 million possible timelines, and only saw one where Thanos loses? and then, in the end , he gave the stone to Thanos and told Iron Man that it had to be? I bet Dr. Strange went to the one universe where Thanos loses, keeps Spiderman from leaving the school bus, thereby never ending up in space, and because of this difference Thanos ends up losing to the Avengers.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I don't think anyone who loves MDC in 2019 is oblivious to it.

i disagree. it’s easier to love when you’re oblivious to it. a lot of the fans will totally let that pass unseen or will not even register with them.

i did enjoy the movie when i saw it, and forgave its limitations, but i can’t just “pretend they’re not there”

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

this is the WHOLE POINT! That white people in USA are able to live lives heedless of the sufferings and troubles of the brown people around them.

You've conveniently forgotten that Doc Holliday only joins Wyatt Earp after the Clantons kill a 'brown' prostitute, and dies in the process.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

You've conveniently forgotten that Doc Holliday only joins Wyatt Earp after the Clantons kill a 'brown' prostitute, and dies in the process.

hahaha

chihuahua is “brown” indeed— linda darnell, darkest woman west of pecos

 

lmao

she’s also doc’s girl though

this discussion is making me actually rewatch clips and remember

i wanna watch darling clementine again. and i’ll be wishing the mexicans stab doc in the gut this time around

but seriously good flick

—

the future will condemn our era for not being vegan. and im okay with that. fuck the future.

[Dr. Eugene Felikson]

 

Wow. Is this ever something

[_tunic_]

https://twitter.com/TheJeffBridges/s...81555582996480


yippie?!!



2.3.19