[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

It's not often. Well, then how do you explain the murder rates?

Unless that's your definition of not often, but I consider those rates unacceptable.

Compare these rates to the worlds population.....

[knox]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Compare these rates to the worlds population.....

That is absolutely irrational.

I was always terrible at math, but you guys are making me look good at it.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

That is absolutely irrational.

I was always terrible at math, but you guys are making me look good at it.

Irrational is thinking taking guns away is going to somehow make us humans less violent.

Where are the statistics stating the amount of times guns have saved lives?

And if you were ever truely that ill, you would have done it without a gun. I never buy into that stuff...I mean, It's not hard (not, not, not that I support one doing this, I don't)

[knox]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

So would it be horrid or clueless to suggest that you no longer be allowed to drive a vehicle?

You see, I remember reading about someone who crashed his car into an oncoming 18 wheeler and died instantly. His family was aware of this because he was on his cell phone with his mother when this happened. He told her what he was about to do. It wasn't even his own vehicle, it belonged to his parents. If only they hadn't owned vehicles......maybe he would still be alive today - truly sad!

Like I said, I think less people should be allowed to drive.
But you'd need efficient public transportation first.

I don't drive and never will drive, like I said, by choice.

btw, is it even legal to drive being on the phone?

and also, people have been repeating: the purpose of a car is not to cause damage, but that's the purpose of a gun.
people need to get and renew licenses to drive cars, because of the responsibility involved.
driving is not a right, it's a permission granted by authorities.

[knox]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Irrational is thinking taking guns away is going to somehow make us humans less violent.

Where are the statistics stating the amount of times guns have saved lives?

And if you were ever truely that ill, you would have done it without a gun. I never buy into that stuff...I mean, It's not hard (not, not, not that I support one doing this, I don't)

I can't make humans less violent - that's exactly the point.

There are statistics about that yes, if you look and you'll find that the times guns have saved lives are really rare if compared to the times they cause accidents and deaths. Like I've been saying a MILLION times.

And yes it is hard, all other suicide methods are more painful and more likely to fail.

But no one here is looking at numbers, we have all the stats posted by suchfriends take a look at that and you will find that taking guns away from people does make them kill less.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

I can't make humans less violent - that's exactly the point.

There are statistics about that yes, if you look and you'll find that the times guns have saved lives are really rare if compared to the times they cause accidents and deaths. Like I've been saying a MILLION times.

And yes it is hard, all other suicide methods are more painful and more likely to fail.

All other? Hell nah, man....there are ways that actually feel good. I won't specify here, but I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.

[Rob Instigator]

everything I have ever read and studied about suicide shows that many "suicides" choose methods that are likely to fail on purpose, because they want to be rescued.

Also, many more men than women use methods that are very unlikely to fail, like a bullet to the head, or jumping off high bridges/buildings. donl;t know if this is because men are more inherently aggresive in all things.

Japan has one of the highest suicide rates of any industrialized nation and their citizens are not allowed to own firearms either.
In 2009, over 30,000 people killed themselves in japan. 12th straight year of that many at least
"Common methods of suicide are jumping in front of trains, leaping off high places, hanging, or overdosing on medication"


the correlation with guns is very tentative.

The WHO (world heath organization) has numbers on this stuff.
http://www.who.int/mental_health/pre...iciderates/en/

shit is real bad in Lithuania, Belarus, Latvia, Slovenia...

[ann ashtray]

Oh Rob...as far as suicide is concerned, I've read many a time over that women are more likely to attempt it (and fail...), while men (whenever we attempt...) are far more likely to succeed. This has always been interesting to me. Off the subject, I know.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by knox

I can't make humans less violent - that's exactly the point.

If I'm violent and I've got a gun I'm far more dangerous to people than with just my fists. I punch like a girl, so I'd probably get taken down very, very quickly. With a gun I might just put a hole in someone, in spite of my inferior strength.

The average psychopath over here generally gets sectioned quite quickly. He might be lucky and get a bit stabby, but someone with a knife is a lot easier to take down than someone with a gun.

I should note that I've known plenty of people who have legally-acquired guns over here. They're not easy to get hold of, but they are very heavily restricted. I think Dunblane was done by a legal gun-owner. I wonder if the problem isn't the mass proliferation and the ease of ownership.

Banning guns isn't something that would happen instantly; following an amnesty, there's bound to be a period of black-market guns and firearms sequestered away. Some rusting, some still in use. But it's a bit defeatist to say that after, say, 10-15 years the effect of widespread firearm ownership wouldn't be very heavily reduced.

And the thing with 'rights' is that the right to socialised medicine is something that's far, far more important to humanity in one of the richest economies in the world than the right to own something to put cunting great holes in things is.

[Rob Instigator]

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

* In the United States during 1997, there were approximately 7,927,000 violent crimes. Of these, 691,000 were committed with firearms. (12)

* Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. (16b)



* In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim." (16c)

* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)


* As of 1998, about 13% of homicides involve knives, 5% involve bludgeons, and 6% are committed with hands and feet.


(12) Calculations performed with data from:
a) "1997 Uniform Crime Reports." Federal Bureau of Investigation. Table 2.11.
b) "National Crime Victimization Survey - Criminal Victimization in the United States, 1997 Statistical Tables." United States Department of Justice. Table 66.

(16b) Study: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun." By Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology (Northwestern University School of Law), 1995. Accessed at http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm.

b) The study states: "Eleven of the surveys permitted the computation of a reasonable adjusted estimate of [Defensive Gun Use] frequency. Two surveys for which estimates could not be produced were the Cambridge Reports and the Time/ CNN. Neither asked the [Defensive Gun Use] question of all [respondents]; thus, it would be sheer speculation what the responses would have been among those [respondents] not asked the [Defensive Gun Use] question. All of the eleven surveys yielded results that implied over 700,000 uses per year." [Table 1 lists these studies and various facts about their methodologies. Eight of the 11 studies mentioned above were nationwide surveys. Among these, the range of defensive gun uses per year is 764,000 - 3,609,000. The 9th nationwide survey is the one this study is based upon. It was conducted with the most precise criteria off all such studies, and estimates that Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals between 1,900,000 and 2,500,000 times per year.]


(16c) The study states: "Nevertheless, in a ten state sample of incarcerated felons interviewed in 1982, 34% reported having been 'scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim.'"

[Rob Instigator]

Like it was stated before by several people. The act of defending onesself witha firearm , preventing a crime, does not get reported in the news. the news exists solely to sell advertising, therefor ethey only focus on scare stories which ensure that people will be sucked into watching their news broadcasts.

a man shooting another man is headline news.

a man using a gun to keep another man from entering his home/business does not. It is not sexy. It does not strike fear into people causing them to spend all their money at the mall because "we could die tomorrow! hom invasion! murders! Must spend all my money! there is no future!"

[gualbert]

Banning guns, it sounds nice.
But it has to apply to everyone, even cops.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

Sadly, a person who is irrational......they are the same regardless of guns, cars, ect. If they truly want to die or kill / hurt someone else, they will find a way to make it happen!

It's a bit more difficult with a knife. It's much harder to kill someone with a knife, actually. They can defend themselves better too, it's more risky for the murderer. Generally, a person who is stabbed has a lot more chance to survive. It's much easier to get caught if you stab someone as well, a lot harder to get away.

We must not forget killers are cowards in general, the easier the more likely they are to do it.

Please look at those UK statistics... does that mean british people are less murderous than americans by nature? I don't think so.

Even the law admits that people kill in the heat of a moment, without premeditiation or even the intention to kill. Guns just make it easier for those things to happen. Out of fear, desperation, rage.

To say that most people are capable of being balanced enough to carry a gun is to ignore human nature. So, no I'm not saying you can make people less violent, I'm saying you need to stop making it easy for violent people.

I know what guns can do, I know how much power they have. Just look at the drug situation in Rio, Colombia or Mexico, these people can only victimize and take control because they can get hold of guns, which sadly come mostly from the US. If you don't get gun control, these people are gonna carry on dying. If you talk about places like that and say you'll give citizens the right to buy guns you'll be looking at CIVIL WAR.

And that's the reality you can't see up there in the US, how much your gun industry is ruining the lives of many people in other countries. Don't tell me they would do that anyway because they are criminals: you can't imagine drug dealers taking control of communities, cities or even countries without their SUPER POWERFUL MODERN GUNS that someone is profitting over. The police goes there with their guns too and starts shooting people, they shoot back and it's an endless cycle of death.

You cannot stop that without reviewing the gun industry and gun control in the US. A lot of these guns used in Mexico were purchased legally in the US at one point.

You can't find realiable stats on the net easily: every single website is being blatantly sponsored by the industry. It's big business, and they don't care it's usually the poor dying anyway.

So I guess I'll give up because most of you are not interested in the other side of the story.

[knox]

I guess that's what people love about guns anyway: the feeling of power.
That power is a disaster in the wrong hands. So, americans, is everyone fit to have a gun? Enlighten me about the screening process in force.
Do they have to go through tests and education like they do before they are allowed to drive?

[ann ashtray]

Or the love of feeling safe...same difference, really.

[Rob Instigator]

to get a concealed handgun permit in texas one must

- fill out an application request at a DPS (department of public safety) office. same place we get our driver's licenses.

- If the DPS determines you are qualified (meaning no criminal felony record, no stay at mental institutions, no name on a terror list, etc.) they send you the FULL application in the mail

The concealed handgun law sets out a number of qualifications that must be met. Your application packet will list them in detail. For example, you must be a legal resident of Texas and you must be qualified to purchase a handgun under all state and federal laws. A number of factors may disqualify you from obtaining a license, such as: felony convictions and some misdemeanor convictions, including charges that resulted in probation or deferred adjudication, pending criminal charges chemical or alcohol dependency, certain types of psychological diagnoses, protective or restraining orders, defaults on taxes, governmental fees, student loans or child support.
The application packet also will include information about materials you need to return with your application packet. These include: two recent color passport photos, two sets of fingerprints taken by a law enforcement agency employee, a copy of your Texas driver license or identification card, and a notification of completion form (TR 100) from a DPS-authorized handgun course.
After receiving completed application packets, the DPS will conduct extensive background checks of juvenile records for the previous 10 years and all adult records.

The training class is a 10-15 hour long certification.

Handguns and other weapons can not be carried at schools or on school buses, at polling places, in courts and court offices, at racetracks and at secured airport areas. The law also specifically prohibits handguns from businesses where alcohol is sold if more than half of their revenue is from the sale of alcohol for on-premises consumption, and from locations where high school, college or professional sporting events are taking place. You may not carry handguns in hospitals or nursing homes, amusement parks, places of worship or at government meetings if signs are posted prohibiting them. Businesses also may post signs prohibiting handguns on their premises based on criminal trespass laws.

If you are caught intoxicated carrying a concealed weapon it is BAD NEWS


what is NOT regulated is the black market, and it never will be. criminals, or anyone with surreptitious motives fro obtaining a gun will forever and ever be able to get them, and all they have to ddo is pony up the dough.
this is true in UK as well as in USA, or anywhere

[Rob Instigator]

to purchase a regular ol gun, rifle, shotgun at a sporting goods store for example, they do an FBI background check.

and there is a 5 day waiting period for many.

If your record is clean then easy peasy.

[tesla69]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

...someone who crashed his car into an oncoming 18 wheeler and died instantly. His family was aware of this because he was on his cell phone with his mother when this happened. He told her what he was about to do. It wasn't even his own vehicle, it belonged to his parents. If only they hadn't owned vehicles......maybe he would still be alive today - truly sad!

maybe the cell phone is the real culprit. i'm convinced cell phones have amplified the cycle of stupidity to an exponential level.

life isn't always pretty. not everyone makes it. why do I have to be responsible for everyone else. leave me out of it.

the only gun I ever owned - I was 14 I think - was a cool Daisy pump air rifle (bb gun), one day I was fucking around and shot the sliding glass door out. that was the end of that. you'll all be happy to know I don't own one now. but I believe strongly I should be able to buy one at prices not artificially inflated by the State (e.g., cigs) if I want.

[Rob Instigator]

there are the gun shows as well!!!!

[GeneticKiss]

Maybe they shouldn't have gun shows then? Maybe guns shouldn't be sold at retail, but rather ordered directly from the manufacturer through some kind of special mail order service?