[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

severian, rap music has a very established history of gang culture. your criticism is like soooooo 25 years ago.

Gang rap is sooooo 25 years ago too.

gang rap is like any musical subgenre, it reflects a particular culture and experience. hardcore crust punk isn't for everyone either, but if you a crusty drunk gutter punk they are singing your songs. well gangs like music too, and there is an extensive history pf gang oriented and affiliated rap. personally i think you're out of line to be so hyper critical of such. that is them. if it ain't you don't listen to it but like Pac said "check this you don't have to like the music but please respect it."

It's not the music I don't respect (in this discussion) ... Obviously, as I've said again and again, it's the shameless promotion of gang culture. I already touched on how this shit can be a part of music without being an advertisement for gang behavior.

[/quote]
do you hate NWA too? the Seven Day Theory? Ready 2 Die? sometimes its actually important for art to reflect reality, and its important for yes even violent gangs to have music and culture they can relate to and find means of personal expression.
[/quote]

Again, already touched on how these folks can make music that reflects their reality without saying "hey everyone, I'm a Blood, Bloods are cool, idolize Bloods!" Neither Pac nor Big ever did this. They made violence part of their music, yeah, but they didn't encourage and promote gang behavior which is exactly what YG is doing.

BUT i can understand and yes respect it

[/quote]

Good for you. You're SO open minded that you "respect" gang culture. I am not that open minded, and I think it's insane to claim that anyone, anywhere should respect it.

Meanwhile, you can't hear the musical innovations of Kanye West. You can't respect him. So yeah, you're probably a little biased because of your regional pride, and that bias is making you ignore and even loathe legitimately respectable music, and respect and defend legitimately loathsome marketing campaigns that encourage pure negativity.

You should do something about that bias. It's making you say stupid shit.

[Severian]

* also, the fact that "rap music has a history" with gang culture is just a statement. It's like saying "Anerica has an established history of white power movements." It's not a defense. Just because something is, doesn't mean it should be. You're smart enough to grasp the logic of this.

In other words "that's how it's always been" is a bullshit excuse.

Not even talking about YG's music here. I'm talking about the overt promotion of extreme violence to teenagers.

Talk all you want, but that shit isn't ok, or respectable, in any way.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

wtf are you talking about Pac was gangbanging the fuck on his records?? what, are you naive enough to believe kids will join gangs or commit violence because of some mediocre YG record? hahaha that his hilarious

i think you are out of your league and you should have left the mic where you dropped it.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Severian

It's not the music I don't respect (in this discussion) ... Obviously, as I've said again and again, it's the shameless promotion of gang culture.

why do you assume that is what it is? what separates YG Brazy Life from Game's recent Streets of Compton release? its not promoting gang culture its reflecting gang culture. there is a difference. indeed, perhaps because you don't seem to know a single thing about gang culture you didn't realize that "repping your hood" is a HUGE part of the machismo and bravado of gang culture. gang rap simply does what gangstas do all the time, repping their gang and telling gang stories. this is what gangtas do in real life, it then is reflected in the music.

I already touched on how this shit can be a part of music without being an advertisement for gang behavior.

well i disagree with you, music is free to reflect subcultures even if you don't like it. you are free to your opinion and criticism but anyone is free to criticize it

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

wtf are you talking about Pac was gangbanging the fuck on his records??

Yeah, but I already went over this. My take is that Pac balanced his violence with a poeticism and thoughtfulness that resulted in the creation of a greater artistic statement. YG, not so much (at all).

And I already said Pac and BIG did this shit before (along with countless others, of course, but we're talking about Pac, so Pac it is) ... And even with the help of insanely intelligent and socially motivated songwriting, he wound up fucking DEAD. So did BIG. Both of them had layers in their music that — intentionally or otherwise — elevated what they were doing to a higher plane, but they're fucking dead, dude!

As I said before, it's up to the rapper/artist of any kind what the message is going to be. If YG, or anyone, wants to follow in the footsteps of the golden era gangstas, he's allowed to make that decision. But he should be prepared and willing to meet the same end.

what, are you naive enough to believe kids will join gangs or commit violence because of some mediocre YG record? hahaha that his hilarious

Uh, yes. Obviously, I am that "naive." Although I don't think it's naïveté, since this kind of thing happens all the fucking time. Art imitates life imitates art. You work at a school. I've worked at a school. You were a dumbass kid once, I was a dumbass kid once. You know how stupid and impressionable kids are. How is it unthinkable that stupid impressionable kids will be influenced by pop music? It happens constantly. It's almost a guarantee.

Even if nobody does "join gangs" or "commit violence" as a direct result of this shitty inconsequential YG album, YG is still choosing to use his influence this way, which makes it more likely that someone will. Again, why do that? Again, how hard is it to NOT play with fire? To NOT take the chance?

i think you are out of your league and you should have left the mic where you dropped it.

I'm not out of my league because I don't come from fucking Compton. I'm not out of my league because I don't have an up-close, intimate knowledge of gang rituals and behaviors. I lived through the '90s. I am entitled to have an opinion about this. I'm not spouting bulkshit rhetoric here. I'm arguing in favor of discretion on the part of musicians when it comes to highly volatile issues that potentially have very real ramifications and consequences for everyday people.

You're not listening to me.
I've already stated that I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here, since I do happen to be a fan of 2Pac and BIG (and NWA ad Eazy, Wu-Tang, and blah blah). So, yeah, my entire stance on this one is full of holes because of who I am and what I've listened to, and what I liked in my youth.

But here's the thing: I love that stuff today because I loved it when I was 13. I grew up with it, but far away from the real-life dangers and socio-cultural fallout of the culture that produced this stuff. In this, I was lucky!

If thirty-something me heard Ready to Die for the first time in 2016, I'd think it was really goddamn inappropriate, but I heard it when I was a young impressionable kid, living a pretty easy life with my academic parents in our suburban Pacific Northwest home.

As an adult, when I see this kind of ultra-overt gang culture promotion, it makes me concerned. I have a different perspective than I did when I was young. I worry about kids. I worry about gang violence. Tell me, is this really so unimaginable to you? YG's not simply "hood repping," he's Blood repping. The Game's Streets of Comton accompanied a documentary about the neighborhoods he came from, where the fallout caused by gang violence was shown as a destructive force for everyone in those streets. There was, for lack of a better word, a "moral" to the story. There was a deliberate attempt to educate white middle class bitches like me about the realty of living in a place where the color of your shirt can get you killed.

There's nothing like that going on wth YG's Still Brazy. Even if there is some depth to the lyrics at times, that cover is essentially a piece of gang propaganda. You can argue with me about it all day, but that's literally what it is. It's using YG's name and face, and combining it with absurdly blatant Blood imagery for marketing purposes.

It's saying "I'm a Blood, buy this album that I have essentially turned into a piece of Blood paraphernalia!" and as a result, you can't buy the album without supporting gang bullshit. That's tacky and irresponsible in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have. I am allowed to not be tolerant of anything that encourages violence, and I don't "need" to respect it because it's a culture. That's taking PC to a warped new level. It's taking the "art has the right to art!" argument to a disgusting and self defeating extreme.

Note: I am not saying YG shouldn't be *allowed* to do this. I'm not saying it should be illegal. I'm not saying it's inherently wrong or immoral.

I'm just saying I think it's fucking disgusting. I'm saying I do not like it. I'm saying that I wish YG had not decided to do this. I'm saying I think it's a wholly negative thing. That's all.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

well i disagree with you, music is free to reflect subcultures even if you don't like it. you are free to your opinion and criticism but anyone is free to criticize it

Right. I'm free to feel how I feel about this. You're free to challenge me and tell me I should respect gang culture. I'm free to say that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You're free to misinterpret my message and tell me I'm basically not qualified to not respect gang culture because I haven't experienced gang culture. I'm free to tell you that you've one-upped yourself on the whole "stupidest thing I've ever heard" front. I'm free, you're free. We're all free.

But just because we have the freedom to do something doesn't mean that thing should be done. For instance, some part of you knows that what I'm railing against is SES-related youth and minority violence, black on black crime and murder, and the longstanding gangland tradition of recruiting children into a world of drugs and violence and death.
I'm sure you realize this on some level, even though you love to argue with me.
You have the "right" to — for some reason — fight with me about what I'm saying (again: gangs bad, violence bad, encouraging violence bad), but WHY? Is this a right that you *should* exercise? Playing devil's advocate for Bloods and Crips? Sure, you can do it. You can take all kinds of umbrage at my disapproval of minority and child violence and you can cook up some rationale for why I'm, like, wrong to have a problem with this.

But Jesus Christ. Really? Is that really something you feel you need to do? Because it seems like you're making a case in favor of the Bloods and Crips (because Culture!!). Of course you can do it, but I have a hard time belie being that you even really want to. I think you just want to have an Internet beef and remind everyone for the thousandth time that you're from LA, and therefore must school anyone who mentions LA or anything related to LA.

Dood.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Severian

Yeah, but I already went over this. My take is that Pac balanced his violence with a poeticism and thoughtfulness that resulted in the creation of a greater artistic statement. YG, not so much (at all).

sure but that doesn't erase all the literal gang banging tracks Pac did talking about shooting, robbing, and killing people and repping M.O.B Pirus. perhaps because those tracks weren't on the radio you forgot how frequently they played a part of Pac's music.

he wound up fucking DEAD. So did BIG. Both of them had layers in their music that — intentionally or otherwise — elevated what they were doing to a higher plane, but they're fucking dead, dude!

i have no qualms with this statement, such is gang life. hence the tracks Ballad of a Dead Soldier, How Long Will They Mourn Me, Why The Good Die Young..

but again i think you mistake reflecting the reality of violence for somehow trying to romanticize or glamorize violence. very different scenarios. maybe because you might not have experienced gang violence might explain why you can't understand why people would want to listen to music that reflects this violence. well, it helps people cope with and make sense of it in some ways.

Uh, yes. Obviously, I am that "naive." Although I don't think it's naïveté, since this kind of thing happens all the fucking time. Art imitates life imitates art. You work at a school. I've worked at a school. You were a dumbass kid once, I was a dumbass kid once. You know how stupid and impressionable kids are. How is it unthinkable that stupid impressionable kids will be influenced by pop music? It happens constantly. It's almost a guarantee.


Even if nobody does "join gangs" or "commit violence" as a direct result of this shitty inconsequential YG album, YG is still choosing to use his influence this way, which makes it more likely that someone will. Again, why do that? Again, how hard is it to NOT play with fire? To NOT take the chance?

see again this is where your naivete is showing. i don't mean that in a pejorative sense btw so please try not to take offense. kids don't join gangs because they hear music or watch movies, kids join gangs because they live in neighborhoods with gangs and they join them because they are caught up, whether to defend themselves from other gangs, to find opportunity to make $ hustling, or even just to develop a sense of family and support system having come from broken family situations. point blank the number one reason most people join a gang is because another gang committed violence against them or a loved one. its a kind of security mechanism, a kind of community, and a kind of solidarity. hence why i feel it shouldn't be disrespected. sure i disagree with the violence but i understand the situation.

I'm not out of my league because I don't come from fucking Compton. I'm not out of my league because I don't have an up-close, intimate knowledge of gang rituals and behaviors. I lived through the '90s. I am entitled to have an opinion about this. I'm not spouting bulkshit rhetoric here. I'm arguing in favor of discretion on the part of musicians when it comes to highly volatile issues that potentially have very real ramifications and consequences for everyday people.

trust me You're out of your league. that is probably a good thing btw, means you don't have the psychological scars and baggage a lot of neighborhood kids have. memories of people getting shot or killed, memories of neighborhoods falling apart, memories of drug abuse.. kids that join gangs do so for some very serious reasons, the other people in the gang can relate to experiences based on somethings you have said that you clearly can't relate to.

You're not listening to me.
I've already stated that I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here, since I do happen to be a fan of 2Pac and BIG (and NWA ad Eazy, Wu-Tang, and blah blah). So, yeah, my entire stance on this one is full of holes because of who I am and what I've listened to, and what I liked in
As an adult, when I see this kind of ultra-overt gang culture promotion, it makes me concerned...

again this is where your different experience causes you to completely misunderstand the situation. this kind of music is NOT promoting gang culture it is simply reflecting it and i can't explain it any further either you "get it" or not but it is what it is.

what i find hilarious is maybe you didn't "get" all the other blatant gang culture references in other rap the same way you didn't know when e-40 said "merking a nigga" he meant explicitly to kill someone. the music of A LOT of gangta rappers is filled with gang references, gang symbols, gang imagery. probably much worse than YG btw (i don't know i haven't listened to Brazy Life yet)..

seems to me that if you understood the references you had more of a problem with a lot of rap that you probably listen to because it reflects a lot of what you have been so critical of here.

Originally Posted by Severian

But just because we have the freedom to do something doesn't mean that thing should be done. For instance, some part of you knows that what I'm railing against is SES-related youth and minority violence, black on black crime and murder, and the longstanding gangland tradition of recruiting children into a world of drugs and violence and death.
I'm sure you realize this on some level, even though you love to argue with me.
You have the "right" to — for some reason — fight with me about what I'm saying (again: gangs bad, violence bad, encouraging violence bad), but WHY? Is this a right that you *should* exercise? Playing devil's advocate for Bloods and Crips? Sure, you can do it. You can take all kinds of umbrage at my disapproval of minority and child violence and you can cook up some rationale for why I'm, like, wrong to have a problem with this.

But Jesus Christ. Really? Is that really something you feel you need to do? Because it seems like you're making a case in favor of the Bloods and Crips (because Culture!!). Of course you can do it, but I have a hard time belie being that you even really want to. I think you just want to have an Internet beef and remind everyone for the thousandth time that you're from LA, and therefore must school anyone who mentions LA or anything related to LA.

Dood.

you missed the point in your pontificating. i ain't mad at you or judging you, just trying to share a perspective that you obviously don't understand. i ain't even arguing with you more so sharing some thoughts to enhance your own perspective.

[Severian]

Well, I'm not even having a real fit about it. I just think it's distasteful for a rapper, in 2016, to choose to market himself this way. What's funny is that most of my bitching is just a direct response to your pushing.

Yeah, there's a lot I don't know about gangs, but I do know gang culture is inexorably linked to violence. I don't have a problem with every rapper who's ever gang-banged, though, obviously. And a lot of rappers I love have gang references peppered throughout their lyrics that I don't even pick up on. I do think gangs are an objectively negative, destructive phenomenon, but I have no problem with people telling their stories.

I have a specific problem with this YG album. Partly because it feels less like he's processing his experiences through art, and more like he (again, YG specifically) is glorifying the lifestyle.
Seems painfully immature at best, and potentially harmful at worst. Most of it has to do with timing. Like, we've been there, done that in hip-hop. Does this asshole really need to "bring gangsta back" in this specific way? It's marketing. It's a young, dumb kid who still thinks like an adolescent. It gets to me, seeing that plastered on over record store walls and iTunes. What a child.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

his first album was called "Im from Bomptom" and he got shot while recording it, why are you acting like this is some new personna he invented for himself? im thinking maybe you never realized YG was ALWAYS gang affiliated

[noisereductions]

I never heard of an album with that title?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by noisereductions

I never heard of an album with that title?

im sorry that was the name of the mix tape that dropped before My Krazy Life

[louder]

It's the name of a song from the mixtape before My Krazy Life which ended up being a bonus track on the album.. MKL also had a song titled "Bicken Back Being Bool"..

[louder]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

im thinking maybe you never realized YG was ALWAYS gang affiliated

Very true.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

his first album was called "Im from Bomptom" and he got shot while recording it, why are you acting like this is some new personna he invented for himself? im thinking maybe you never realized YG was ALWAYS gang affiliated

First off... What?

Second, no. I knew. I don't think he just invented some new persona. Not at all. But (again, as I've said before) it feels a little sneaky to fly the flag so overtly just after he gained a position of influence. Just repeating myself now, so I'm really and truly getting over this.

[Severian]

Louder, you know I was bumping MKL like mad in 2014.

Yeah, YG is gangy. But he managed to be gangy on MKL without turning the album into an advertisement for gang culture. I don't get why he felt the need to change the name of "Still Krazy" at the last minute to make the ganginess more overt.

Again, it's not like I have something against gang references in music. Or against YG even. I have something against tasteless bullshit that goes farther than it needs to.
But whatever.

[louder]

Originally Posted by Severian

Louder, you know I was bumping MKL like mad in 2014.

Yeah, YG is gangy. But he managed to be gangy on MKL without turning the album into an advertisement for gang culture. I don't get why he felt the need to change the name of "Still Krazy" at the last minute to make the ganginess more overt.

Again, it's not like I have something against gang references in music. Or against YG even. I have something against tasteless bullshit that goes farther than it needs to.
But whatever.

I get it. The subject matter of the album isn't super interesting for me either..

[louder]

Frank has a deal with Apple Music now so I assume the album is about to drop really really soon. About time.

[louder]

Sean and Kendrick have a crazy song on DJ Khaled's new album.. Sean's verse was extremely good and he would've renegaded any other rapper but Kendrick had the upper hand because of his virtuosic flow and crazy rhyme schemes.

Nas and Cole have individual songs each and they were very nice too.. Nas' song is titled "Nas Album Done" so it's pretty much an announcement (WHEW NASTY SEASON IS COMING! I'M READY!!).

The rest of the album is pretty subpar though..

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Severian

Louder, you know I was bumping MKL like mad in 2014.

Yeah, YG is gangy. But he managed to be gangy on MKL without turning the album into an advertisement for gang culture. I don't get why he felt the need to change the name of "Still Krazy" at the last minute to make the ganginess more overt.

Again, it's not like I have something against gang references in music. Or against YG even. I have something against tasteless bullshit that goes farther than it needs to.
But whatever.

but again all those are your opinions, clearly the guy feels like it represents himself as an artist. you keep insinuating its something akin to a publicity stunt, i disagree. i think the guy just put out a gangsta rap record and honestly i can't understand why you're choosing this particular record for the brunt of your anti gangsta rap criticism.

i respect your feelings and opinions, i just don't understand the trigger point, we've talked about other gangsta rap records before no big deal.. why now?

[louder]

I was right..

"Frank Ocean’s Long-Awaited ‘Boys Don’t Cry’ Is Due on Friday"!!

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/ar...ease-date.html