[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Zeppelin is influenced by pure blues, i don't hear any Beatles in it. Not only were Floyd also clearly influenced by blues and soul, they clearly pioneered their OWN sound. Indeed be more specific. What chord structures, melody patterns, song patterns did Beatles TRULY innovate that other bands weren't already doing? Provide specific examples because frankly I'm not sure you can.


I am well aware that i am expressing an almost sacrilegious opinion BUT i honestly think people don't understand what "influence" means in the context of music theory.

I also mean NO DISRESPECT to the Beatles, i again mentioned i DO believe they are one of the most influential bands of all time HOWEVER as i said, i believe their influence is not in regards to the actual music but rather in influencing and inspiring other musicians to experiment and development their OWN original sounds and theories.

Do you play music? I been playing guitar for 15 years now.. i can "hear" as well as "add up (according to theory) the direct influence of a lot of bands, i just honestly don't hear it in Beatles music.

Yeah, I play. Started at age 12, so... Wow. Long time. But only seriously for a handful of years playing in bands in my 20's.

See, I think the Beatles influence on Zeppelin is pretty clear. You talk as though the Beatles didn't play the blues/were not themselves hugely influenced by R&B. Listen to "I Want You (She's so Heavy)" or "Oh Darling"... "She Came in through the Bathroom Window" would fit perfectly on Houses of the Holy.

If you strip all the layers back from the Beatles' songs, and replace the intricacies with sleazy fat bottom riffs, virtually any one of them could, conceivably, be turned into a Zeppelin song.

And that's nothing against Led Zeppelin. Not necessarily.

I'm not saying Zep didn't have their own unique variation on rock... I'm just saying the Beatles influenced them. And Floyd. Of course Floyd. Floyd even more so. In fact, the sound probably kind of split a bit, with Zep pushing for a more Stonesy sound and Flpyd trying to pick up where the Beatles left off. But both were massively influenced by the Beatles. Musically, conceptually, aesthetically, whatever your definition of influence is, the fact remains.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

You're talking as if the Beatles invented the Blues or as if Sabbath and Zeppelin didn't have access to ACTUAL bluesmen to influence them. I didn't ask about guitar to make it a pissing contest, i asked to have a serious discussion. If you play then do you also understand theory?

Please then inform of any chord structures, timing, tunings, melodies, scales, patterns, or anything else that the Beatles innovatived and introduced to music? I am admittedly not a Beatles expert so I am open minded to a different perspective but from my ears I don't hear anything innovative (in other words things other bands weren't already doing). I am willing to be corrected and learn something new

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

And just because my opinion is unpopular doesn't mean i am in any way trolling you. Id like to have a substantive discussion

[noisereductions]

Beatles influenced Nirvana.

[louder]

A list of artists influenced by the Beatles:

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/hatigu...r_t he_other/

Interesting.. they birthed some incredible songs.

[louder]

Black Messiah was influenced by the Beatles as well.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

You're talking as if the Beatles invented the Blues or as if Sabbath and Zeppelin didn't have access to ACTUAL bluesmen to influence them.

I don't think I am. I'm not saying the Beatles were the only influence, just that they absolutely had an influence. What's the problem here?

I didn't ask about guitar to make it a pissing contest, i asked to have a serious discussion. If you play then do you also understand theory?

Who's having a pissing contest? I didn't think that's what you were doing. But yes I understand theory. Is it at the front of my mind? No. You're probably way ahead of me on that stuff.

Please then inform of any chord structures, timing, tunings, melodies, scales, patterns, or anything else that the Beatles innovatived and introduced to music?

Do you need me to tell you what key "She's so Heavy" is in? What the time signature is? Or have you just never heard it?

I am admittedly not a Beatles expert so I am open minded to a different perspective but from my ears I don't hear anything innovative (in other words things other bands weren't already doing). I am willing to be corrected and learn something new

And I'm not a Zep expert. Really, I'm not. But there are few bands I know as well as the Beatles. To me it seems like you're asking me to tell you what green and purple have in common. You're asking me to tell you about songs that (in my mind at least) everyone has heard thousands of times.

Just go listen to "I want you (she's so heavy)" and the other songs I mentioned, and if the influence on Zep isn't immediately noticeable, come back to me and we'll dig in more.

I'm not trying to be a dick here man. I haven't played my own guitar in ages, and it's been years since I was last in a band. I didn't take a lesson until after college, and that was ages ago now, so I don't want to embarrass myself by saying some thing stupid, and I don't really feel like looking up correlations between Zep and Beatles song structures for the sake of this debate.

Make sense?

[Severian]

Originally Posted by noisereductions

Beatles influenced Nirvana.

Yup. Totally.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by louder

Black Messiah was influenced by the Beatles as well.

Indeed! And tons of other hip-hop/R&B albums, from Late Registration to 8 Diagrams.

[Severian]

Beatles - "I Want You (She's so Heavy)" album version YOUTUBE

[Severian]

I actually think "She's so Heavy" is about as good as the Beatles get. Definitely one of my all time favorite songs. You can hear a bit of a prelude to noise rock in the ambient fuzz that grows louder and louder in the background. Such an epic song. to be heard in its entirety only.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by louder

Black Messiah was influenced by the Beatles as well.

Do you have any music theory to back this up?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by louder

A list of artists influenced by the Beatles:

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/hatiguna/artists_influenced_by_the_beatles_in_some_way_or_t he_other/

Interesting.. they birthed some incredible songs.

Again, incorporate some music theory.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Severian

I don't think I am. I'm not saying the Beatles were the only influence, just that they absolutely had an influence. What's the problem here?

The problem is I asked for empirical evidence based on substantive music theory to support your claim. Otherwise you are being nothing more than a music critic which is to say sharing an OPINION. I am not judging your opinion so much as asking to fact check.

Do you need me to tell you what key "She's so Heavy" is in? What the time signature is? Or have you just never heard it?

What I am asking is for you to connect this influence. Tell me a key, chord change, or timing structure that the Beatles innovated that as you claim other bands or artists then later implemented in their own music. THAT is what influence is according to music theory.

And I'm not a Zep expert. Really, I'm not. But there are few bands I know as well as the Beatles. To me it seems like you're asking me to tell you what green and purple have in common. You're asking me to tell you about songs that (in my mind at least) everyone has heard thousands of times.

To elaborate on your analogy, I am asking you to get out your spectrometer or electron microscope and tell me the wavelength and atomic structures that differentiate purple from green.

Just go listen to "I want you (she's so heavy)" and the other songs I mentioned, and if the influence on Zep isn't immediately noticeable, come back to me and we'll dig in more.

Do you think I have somehow never heard Beatles music before? I think you missed the individual trees for the forest.

I'm not trying to be a dick here man.

Neither am i. Just trying to have a very very grown up conversation, I am even intentionally trying to be self conscious of my own tendency towards sarcasm to turn it down.

so I don't want to embarrass myself by saying some thing stupid, and I don't really feel like looking up correlations between Zep and Beatles song structures for the sake of this debate.

I'm not asking you to get in over your head, I am asking you to do some homework.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

ok, being influential and innovated is certainly different in the pop world than in the obscure world. music and art and pop are separate things. saying the Beatles are influential well, your covering a whole host of things under the roof.

Even in the pop world there are music theory based innovations that artists and producers bring to the table, that is why I personally don't ever disrespect pop music even when I don't care for it. I still see it as a craft and an art

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

concept albums, 12 song tracklistings, important singles, moving along with your inspirations. yes, we still live in a Beatles world.

kinda cool. I like history and the natural progression of it all. leaving the past behind while having a secret love grip on it.

Other bands had concept albums before them, the tracklisting even during Beatles was determined by record company contracts and business models NOT necessarily as something artistic, same things with singles they are part of record company plans not necessarily any kind of artistic showcase. Maybe you could say the Beatles manipulated these record company strategies to their own artistic advantage but frankly your're going to have to include some better evidence of this like interviews or quotes from the artists directly saying that yes, their tracklisting and singles were something more significant than "just business"

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

some, who where there, would say the Beatles chord changes were radical. I can't displace myself out of history's context to say but, I believe because I wasn't there. or maybe I want to believe.

Now we're getting closer.. Just a hint: I did some homework myself and discovered some interesting things but I wouldn't be a good teacher if I just gave y'all the answer. keep digging you are inching in the right direction.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

Wait? how do you know this? there's plenty of proof the Beatles had control over this. maybe not the singles part but, the albums were largely their input.

Wait, how did YOU Not know this? Basic Record Industry 101..

The record contract determines the number of tracks because the number of tracks determines the pay rate. As to singles, record companies especially in the 50s and 60s were really hard on singles and trying to put out singles for albums as both promotion and also to make extra money in additional sales of the singles with the albums. Its not that the record companies actually chose each individual song (though for some bands and contracts that is indeed exactly what the did) but rather the format was determined by record contract stipulations. Its business. I am not saying the Beatles didn't have some freedom, I am saying they didn't invent that structure it pre-dates them. They very may well have had some more freedom than other bands under contract, but until you post an interview or quote explicitly mentioning this it is mere opinion or worse conjecture.

[noisereductions]

This is the best conversation we have had here in a while. I love you guys.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

not necessarily. it has been proven not so. too lazy to do the research so stop being all Steve Albini on me.

That is the thing, proven in which way? it is a WELL KNOWN fact that record industry determined the number of tracks for albums long before Beatles. Stop being lazy and do something homework. Teach me something and we can all learn together through the process.