[Dr. Eugene Felikson]

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[!@#$%!]

Hello Knoxy. Good to hear back from you.

I'm somehow shocked that you say that you're not posting real women. Because that's like the ultimate admission of objetification. There is no such thing as a woman that is not 'real'. It's that very thought that baffles me.

that's why i posted the pipe image-- "this isn't a pipe" (it's a picture of a pipe) (also, it's a french joke). my point is that those pictures are pictures, not women. we often equate the image with the thing but there is a disconnect. those images are objects. they aren't women.

now, you could argue that those images promote the objectification of women, but that's a different debate. i'd be happy to discuss that but i first wanted to get out of the way that pictures are NOT people.

The very same thinking you've shown: You gotta take me out for a coffee so I can become a real person. Do you understand that many people have turned it into that? The first assumption is I am an object (as long as you don't know me I don't need to be seen as a human being). If you don't take me for a cup of coffee I remain like that.

I've never assumed that you are an object because you have never presented yourself as such. We've had talks on and off threads and I don't know why you would assume I think you're not a "real" person. The coffee thing-- was just a hypothetical, not to take literally. I was just attempting to contrast the object/commodity (the sexy picture) from the actual existence of actual people whose picture was taken.

It is true that there are many idiots out there who commodify other people (the size of their wallet, their penis, their bra size, their social status, etc), but that is a deeper problem than the existence of pornographic pictures. Both men and women tend to approach relationships as some kind of market transaction in which they can exchange "desirable attributes"-- just look at personal ads.

That happens in real life to real women as a consequence of these twisted thoughts. I don't know one woman who hasn't felt that way. It's nothing new tho. Women have been objects/property in most societies for thousands of years now. (Drop your father's name take your husband's name now that you've changed owners).

Funny, my wife has kept her own last name as we find that name change a bit ridiculous. And I know that happens in real life, but again, it goes beyond just sex.

And then you get people with Rob's cop out strategy:
I am a good guy, ya'll. In real life, I treat women real nice. Things have been worse in our society before, so I think it's all ok!!!! I don't need to think about the morals behind my actions because everyone's doing it guys!

YOU KNOW, that's the majority.

Well, I truly believe in Rob's good faith and I think he's nice to his girlfriend and loves her and would do anything for her. I'm not ready to condemn him because he likes pictures of girls with big asses.

There are OTHER people however who see women as nothing more than "a piece of ass", but I actually think that's a psychopathic minority, and that most people are looking for meaningful relationships in spite of the fact that we live in a very deranged society.

Having recognized that, I'll say that I cannot make myself responsible for the sins of all humanity. There was a dude who tried that, and they crucified him.

From my point of view, everytime you bring something out men get pretty defensive as if they're being accused or something or whatever. It's not like they wanna hear what it feels like, they just want to excuse themselves. It's not like most people are prepared to find out that even tho they are mostly good people, we also take part in the most evil of the human world.


Yeah I see your point and you're right on the mark there. Which reminds me of the very final scene in "Demonlover". You've seen it?

However, I don't think that desire or asthetic enjoyent or whatever it is that gives a market to pornography is bad in itself--- it's that the pornography exploits desire and natural human instincts.

But the thing is, very few people take pornography seriously and/or guide their lives by it. Sure, there are mental cases, and shut-ins, and but for most people it's simply a masturbation aid and not a guide to life.

Sometimes not doing is way way more criminal than doing.

I don't get how this applies to this exactly, maybe you care to elaborate or maybe it's not central to your argument-- your call.

I DONT KNOW, but you know. There are women on this forum. Perhaps we just get fucking tired of seeing tits and ass and pussies everywhere. Maybe it makes us FEEL bad. Maybe that should be kept in some wanking guys threads, just so we'd know, just out of some degree of respect.


Yes, ok, I do see your point. Sometimes this feels too much like a sailor bar, but it's up to those who do not like that environment to either fight back or create alternative spaces or just avert your eyes. Which goes back to my point of the free board-- you have to tolerate shit, but you have every right to give shit as well.

So-- give us shit! You definitely have my ear and I'm not making excuses.

Wow, I've written a lot here and I don't know how the whole thing reads. I hope it makes sense.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by ni'k

im not talking specifically about the images you posted.

im talking about the constant barrage of them, all the gross porn, that's posted everywhere by loads of guys here.

so your sensibilites aren't delicate and are hard like a mans or some shit, but maybe when other peoples are you and they complain you could all try to just relegate them to the one thread? i don't find that particularily unreasonable.

but yeah, you just sadly seem to be proving some of my criticisms of guys here right again by the way you are engaging with me.

oh i wasn't aware of that. and the gross porn-- ok.

my sensibilities are quite delicate actually, in spite of my "fuck you" internet persona. although i have a cynical streak that can laugh at almost any horror.

i can engage differently with you, as i often do, but you know you tend to overheat sometimes, no? and for the record, i've admitted the same behavior in myself-- yes? it takes one to know one. i have plenty of mad rants to show i'm as guilty as you if not more.

anyway-- friends?

i need a rest from this board. i've been typing like mad for like 2 hours.

my wife is out of town, by the way, which is why i'm spending too much time here

thanks for keeping me company, you mad bastard.

[Dr. Eugene Felikson]

Since when do girls not love assholes? I've tried being the nice guy for years, and it never got me laid once. At best, it imprisoned me in the everlasting "friend zone" (Friends with a girl? Disgusting, I know). But, ever since I wised up, and started talking a little smack, here and there... I've at least had some minor luck with the opposite sex (including a girl whom I devotedly dated for over 2 years).

I could care less if you guys believe me or not, but from my experience WOMEN LOVE DICKS.

EDIT: I think it may have to do with the obvious sarcastic spin I throw on my witty one-liners, but trust me - they work. There is absolutely nothing that a girl loves more than confidence. It's in their wiring.

[knox]

You guys are twisting my whole point. I never said anything about pornography and those images are not pornography (not even legally speaking).

You said I am not an object because I didn't present myself to you as such. But is it ok if I am to anyone else who hasn't talked to me?

Just because we're good people and we treat the people we know nicely, does it mean that we do not spread any nasty moral cultural viruses that we should probably analyse better? By excusing ourselves because we're "good people", isn't that how we spread discrimination, classism, racism, sexism, xenophobia and all horrors?

You never mentioned anything about choice. You said something about those women having a choice, but not the women who are surrounded by these images everywhere.

It seems that it makes Nik's point more obvious, that no one is interested in what we're saying (a few people have respectfully requested that the boy's club should be kept in one thread) but no one did anything other than justify why they don't give a shit about how others feel.

This spreading social stereotypes, leaving gay men and women to get the worst end of the shit and straight boy to live in this constant anxiety of what is it that a man is supposed to be.

All this bullshit discussion is something I would expect from any bullshit workspace filled with mediocre people. I guess I'm too naive to think Sonic Youth fans would be different.

I don't know why. I had this boyfriend once who was a Sonic Youth fan. I once told him as a teenager I would listen to Kim Gordon's songs and go like yeah yeah I relate to this message and then he said I listened to her songs too, just so I could jerk off to her voice.

I should have known back then.

[Dr. Eugene Felikson]

I don't have respect for either gender. Women are just more aesthetically pleasing to me.

[!@#$%!]

my eyes hurt but the choice i put in my post to better than deux above

ok i need to get off the machine but no, i don't assume that people are objects, regardles.

i only assume that objects (pictures) are objects.

and also there are people who purposely objectify themselves but that's another story.

oh! the phone! i am saved...

[Genteel Death]

?'@:c2, you make an interesting point about the posting of certain pictures, and one I partly agree with. What if someone would start posting pictures of kids in sexual situations on a regular basis though? Would that make them less attached to the nudity they are posting?

[pbradley]

Fuck all the talk about objectification, I just get tired of the constant barrage of pictures of naked women. It's annoying to check the forum and see nothing new apart from pictures of women who all look the same. When I need a well-deserved wank, like hell I'd come to SYG for my viewing pleasure.

This has probably been said by others, with probably the same words, so throw me in with that lot.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

?'@:c2, you make an interesting point about the posting of certain pictures, and one I partly agree with. What if someone would start posting pictures of kids in sexual situations on a regular basis though? Would that make them less attached to the nudity they are posting?

it's clearly not the same, because while a grownup can decide to sell pictures of their funbags (this term, i learned, covers both nuts and boobage) for other people to get aroused, a child is not equipped to make such decisions, so in this case the picture would not be a sexy object but evidence in a criminal investigation. wouldn't you agree?

[automatic bzooty]

i feel bad about the way i view women sometimes

~whateva~

[Genteel Death]

Indeed I agree. There are plenty of women exploited for pornographic purposes, though, and there's no way for us to tell the ones who are from the ones who are not. While Baby Jane from Sacramento or something might have made a fulfilling career out of posing naked for an internet website, Lola Windsor from Orlando would tell you a different story.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Indeed I agree. There are plenty of women exploited for pornographic purposes, though, and there's no way for us to tell the ones who are from the ones who are not. While Baby Jane from Sacramento or something might have made a fulfilling career out of posing naked for an internet website, Lola Windsor from Orlando would tell you a different story.

yeah, the whole subject of human trafficking and sexual slavery truly makes me wanna vomit. i cannot think of anything more disturbing and horrible.

i guess at some point responsible porn consumers will have to start knowing their source the same way conscious consumers purchase local/organic/cruelty-free food?

i've never bought porn though, so i wouldn't know where to begin getting "certified humane porn" or anything like that.

one thing i'll tell you is that i find fake-rape porn truly revolting. i wonder if sometimes some of those are not staged but real. brrrr!!!!!!! it gives me the willies.

[Genteel Death]

surely to ''sterotype'' you i'd have to be female myself no? or you're victimising the reverse perhaps?

[pbradley]

Which is more offensive, tons of pictures of naked women or tons of parody threads?

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

yeah, the whole subject of human trafficking and sexual slavery truly makes me wanna vomit. i cannot think of anything more disturbing and horrible.

i guess at some point responsible porn consumers will have to start knowing their source the same way conscious consumers purchase local/organic/cruelty-free food?

i've never bought porn though, so i wouldn't know where to begin getting "certified humane porn" or anything like that.

one thing i'll tell you is that i find fake-rape porn truly revolting. i wonder if sometimes some of those are not staged but real. brrrr!!!!!!! it gives me the willies.

with fake rape-porn i imagine it appeals to the sort of bloke who's relationship with a girl has ended badly and must find something to visualize his immature, cowardly emotions toward women in general. someone whose confidence with the opposite sex is purely measured by mental shortcomings making a step forward. i'm guessing.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

with fake rape-porn i imagine it appeals to the sort of bloke who's relationship with a girl has ended badly and must find something to visualize his immature, cowardly emotions toward women in general. someone whose confidence with the opposite sex is purely measured by mental shortcomings making a step forward. i'm guessing.

i guess it's a plausible explanation, but it's a common theme on japanese sex stuff, even hentai-- i guess it's cultural or something-- but it's creepy and i don't get it. does rape give japanese men boners? weird...

[Glice]

Oh, I wasn't going to say anything, but I just wanted to say that there's a lot of conflating of biological facts with more complex social quandaries going on. Why not just say "Humans are biologically inclined towards sex, therefore it's ok if I rape this 12-year-old. Come on, she wants it"?

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i guess it's a plausible explanation, but it's a common theme on japanese sex stuff, even hentai-- i guess it's cultural or something-- but it's creepy and i don't get it. does rape give japanese men boners? weird...

japanese guys get boners from watching videos of women kicking dudes in their pixeled out balls. Or watching videos of women putting cockroaches in a blender, drinking them, the puking them over a guy's nob then sucking him off.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by knox

Also, not many women post on this forum. The few that do have been doing it less. Does it occur to anyone that you might be driving women away?

what do you mean "might"?