[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

right-- it's not that free will doesn't exist, it's that it's LIMITED.

you can't quit smoking and go on a diet and exercise and work on a big project deadline or final exams and deal with a hostile work environment and relationship failures all at the same time. it's fucking impossible. there is only so much self-control available during the day (you have more when you're fresh, less when you're tired, which is why people tend to gorge themselves with pizza in the evenings).

this "free will" (or whatever) requires judicious management so that it can hit the critical points of the enemy instead of punching everyone everywhere all the time. automate most things and focus on the one thing.

this is of course not a cure-all. life is still fucked in millions of ways. but it's a way to manage the small portion of things one can manage.

and of course changing your environment helps a lot. it's much easier to quit smoking in boulder than in las vegas. the "individual" is overrated.

unfortunately we have zero proof that it even exists.

ZERO.

we have literally no scientific data that even hints that intentionality is anything other than an EXPERIENCE. no data that suggests ANY causal power for the phenomenon we call self.

its possible we could come across some. but i wouldnt hold my fucking breath!

scott bakker writes about this and is terrified of his own theories. but he has not been proven wrong. sure, the vast majority of people selling books or performing their careers will tell you otherwise, but bakkers theories can shoot them down everytime. he has a complete theory of consciousness which will either be proven or disproved by future empirical tests.

this is what makes me such a nihilist.

we are literally trapped in a machine that thinks, that can only think of itself, as having powers that it does not posses. bakkers theories explain exactly why this has occurred and why evolution rigged us this way.

therefore, not only do we have no intentionality or self whatsoever, we can't even get this idea across to each other without horrifying each other. capitalism exploits us knowing full well that free will is a consumer existentialist myth, and capitalism is getting smarter and smarter in how it engineers those burgers to hijack the brain of the human cattle in its consumer pens. the system works by profiting off knowledge that the vast majority of people are ignorant of and will REFUSE to believe! even though its true!

we will never admit that this freedom we have is a sham, and society will simultaneously ENCOURAGE this delusion as it also exploits us using science based on the truth that we don't have a self.

we can't admit it to each other socially because we're animals and it's a sign of weakness. we're fucking screwed. the truth is brutal.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

but alcoholics? its not the same for them. their brains and bodies are different. i cant transpose my neuro/bio set up as the default setting for humanity.

cigarettes are stimulants, alcohol is a depressant.

i don't mean to oversimplify your dna but it would seem like you have a "problem" with low dopamine. not you alone-- you and your environment. i.e., your environment requires a dopamine level that you must supplement with cigarettes in order to function.

i used to drink more when i was doing stuff i hated. now i don't have to. i still have a "problem" with low dopamine (vs. the usual requirements) but i manage.

[dead_battery]

i mean, we are literally wandering about in desperation for money, working and hustling in whatever way we can, and then we're being neurologically hijacked by highly sophisticated drugs - tobacco, junk food etc. and it gives us intense pleasure because of what it does to our brains. it also destroys us slowly, so we walk around in this sublime mixture of fear and craving - I WANT TO FUCKING QUIT I'M KILLING MYSELF IM TERRIFIED! we also want to HAVE IT really really fucking badly. we are machines telling each other stories that are totally fictional about our dedication to quit. it's a nightmare. the only way out is death. and death tastes good.

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

cigarettes are stimulants, alcohol is a depressant.

i don't mean to oversimplify your dna but it would seem like you have a "problem" with low dopamine. not you alone-- you and your environment. i.e., your environment requires a dopamine level that you must supplement with cigarettes in order to function.

i used to drink more when i was doing stuff i hated. now i don't have to. i still have a "problem" with low dopamine (vs. the usual requirements) but i manage.

its not a matter of simply getting "more" dopamine. the science doesn't work that way. i dont understand it but i know that the way we talk about dopamine in mass culture is just not accurate.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

unfortunately we have zero proof that it even exists.

ZERO.

we have literally no scientific data that even hints that intentionality is anything other than an EXPERIENCE. no data that suggests ANY causal power for the phenomenon we call self.

its possible we could come across some. but i wouldnt hold my fucking breath!

scott bakker writes about this and is terrified of his own theories. but he has not been proven wrong. sure, the vast majority of people selling books or performing their careers will tell you otherwise, but bakkers theories can shoot them down everytime. he has a complete theory of consciousness which will either be proven or disproved by future empirical tests.

this is what makes me such a nihilist.

we are literally trapped in a machine that thinks, that can only think of itself, as having powers that it does not posses. bakkers theories explain exactly why this has occurred and why evolution rigged us this way.

therefore, not only do we have no intentionality or self whatsoever, we can't even get this idea across to each other without horrifying each other. capitalism exploits us knowing full well that free will is a consumer existentialist myth, and capitalism is getting smarter and smarter in how it engineers those burgers to hijack the brain of the human cattle in its consumer pens. the system works by profiting off knowledge that the vast majority of people are ignorant of and will REFUSE to believe! even though its true!

we will never admit that this freedom we have is a sham, and society will simultaneously ENCOURAGE this delusion as it also exploits us using science based on the truth that we don't have a self.

we can't admit it to each other socially because we're animals and it's a sign of weakness. we're fucking screwed. the truth is brutal.

right, but it's a theory-- a big one-- that has yet to be proven or disproven.

meanwhile, the animal wants to quit smoking but can't.

but since the universe has yet to be deciphered, you might as well try an empirical approach in the meantime-- see what has worked for others and try it for yourself (within reason-- i won't try religion, for example). there are a myriad methods and one might work for you. eventually, if nothing works, you can at least say that you have proof that trying is futile.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

unfortunately we have zero proof that it even exists.

ZERO.

we have literally no scientific data that even hints that intentionality is anything other than an EXPERIENCE. no data that suggests ANY causal power for the phenomenon we call self.

its possible we could come across some. but i wouldnt hold my fucking breath!

scott bakker writes about this and is terrified of his own theories. but he has not been proven wrong. sure, the vast majority of people selling books or performing their careers will tell you otherwise, but bakkers theories can shoot them down everytime. he has a complete theory of consciousness which will either be proven or disproved by future empirical tests.

this is what makes me such a nihilist.

we are literally trapped in a machine that thinks, that can only think of itself, as having powers that it does not posses. bakkers theories explain exactly why this has occurred and why evolution rigged us this way.

therefore, not only do we have no intentionality or self whatsoever, we can't even get this idea across to each other without horrifying each other. capitalism exploits us knowing full well that free will is a consumer existentialist myth, and capitalism is getting smarter and smarter in how it engineers those burgers to hijack the brain of the human cattle in its consumer pens. the system works by profiting off knowledge that the vast majority of people are ignorant of and will REFUSE to believe! even though its true!

we will never admit that this freedom we have is a sham, and society will simultaneously ENCOURAGE this delusion as it also exploits us using science based on the truth that we don't have a self.

we can't admit it to each other socially because we're animals and it's a sign of weakness. we're fucking screwed. the truth is brutal.

Like all things that cannot be "verified" you either act as if it is real or act as if it is not, but it does not define the issue. if you act like you have free will, then you will show free will. if you choose to act as if free will does not exist, then you have exercised free will to do so.

either way, free will is real.

It may only apply to a tiny fraction of what we actively engage in, but that does not make it unreal. It is a very interesting philosophical conversation though.

Mr. Bakker exercised his free will in choosing to write about the non-existence of free will. (edit)

[dead_battery]

that's post modernism 1.0. we bluff and play for time "but you DON'T KNOW!".

that's over now. now we do know.

ive tried A LOT.

there's nothing out there left for me to try.

i really resent the idea i should feel like i need to take personal responsibility for this situation. i think that is a subtle form of abuse. an ideology by which the slave/resources of consumer society are made to take societies failure onto their own backs. like a slave being told his lot in life is between him and god.

people are making MONEY off me being isolated and addicted. society tolerates it. we all collaborate with this system because we have no other choice.

and we spend our days therapizing each other "you can do it! try exercise yoga fruit juice blah blah fucking blah". selling ourselves to lifestyles and products.

the evil has to stop. somehow, we have to find a way to stop people profiting off each other in this way.

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Like all things that cannot be "verified" you either act as if it is real or act as if it is not, but it does not define the issue. if you act like you have free will, then you will show free will. if you choose to act as if free will does not exist, then you have exercised free will to do so.

either way, free will is real.

It may only apply to a tiny fraction of what we actively engage in, but that does not make it unreal. It is a very interesting philosophical conversation though.

Mr. Bakker exercised his free will in choosing to write about the non-existence of free will. (edit)

you have nothing but semantics here. meanwhile neuroscience has a brain that shows absolutely zero capacity for free will or intention whatsoever.

is what you are saying even possible as a thing that i could "do"? i dont think so.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

its not a matter of simply getting "more" dopamine. the science doesn't work that way. i dont understand it but i know that the way we talk about dopamine in mass culture is just not accurate.

what i'm saying is that cigarettes provide you with something. what is that exactly? phenomenologically? biochemically? symbolically? behaviorally? socially?

if you can figure out what are the multiple payoffs, you can hack the mechanisms so that the animal gets the same or similar payoffs from other less "evil" (as you call them) sources.

cigarette companies are not omnipotent beings that cannot be defeated. they arrived to their formulas through trial an error, not through total control of the universe. their executives are whistling in the dark just like everyone else. they hack the animal, the animal hacks back.

[dead_battery]

imagine the fucking impossibility of the political project i am advocating here.

telling people the truth - they have no self, intentionality or free will, then trying to organize ourselves in such a way to put a stop to what are highly profitable drug selling operations. the very things that allow us a (momentarily) pleasurable sensation of death

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

what i'm saying is that cigarettes provide you with something. what is that exactly? phenomenologically? biochemically? symbolically? behaviorally? socially?

if you can figure out what are the multiple payoffs, you can hack the mechanisms so that the animal gets the same or similar payoffs from other less "evil" (as you call them) sources.

cigarette companies are not omnipotent beings that cannot be defeated. they arrived to their formulas through trial an error, not through total control of the universe. their executives are whistling in the dark just like everyone else. they hack the animal, the animal hacks back.

yeah. but i am all out of hacks!

[Rob Instigator]

There is no purpose nor reason for existing. we all innately know this but we shy away from it and run to religion, or metaphysics, or some sort of surrogate that gives our lives "purpose."

I love life. I love to enjoy good food, good cigars. I wish I could drink cold beers on hot days but I am allergic to alcohol, so no go there. I enjoy learning. I enjoy art and music and making art.

These things are enough fro me to consider life worthy and to consider my life well lived.

I hope you can find somethings that make life beautiful dead_battery. I bet you have some but they are overshadowed by the suckage. I do not mean to assume, just wondering.

addiction of any kind is not rational. it is not a decision. The decision comes in fighting the addiction, at all cost, even to the death.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Get to know facts before you start worrying. Pollution, radon gas, workplace pollutants, chemicals in your home (cleaning solutions, hairspray, etc), and plain ol genetic mutation cause a shit ton of lung cancer.

Its simple math, smoking causes lung cancer, period, end of discussion. Even more it contributes to all kinds of different cancers. There is no debate about this, the science you all love so much is quite conclusive about this. Its not a conspiracy from tobacco companies, these carcinogens are naturally occurring in the plant, its part of its evolutionary survival mechanism. Nicotine is a great drug for humans who weigh over a hundred pounds, but for insects that weigh less than grams it is an instant nerve toxin..

Its not just cancer, because nicotine causes vascular restriction for about 20 minutes after ingestion it is also a significant contributing factor in heart disease and heart attacks which actually kill more smokers than cancer. There is really no way around this..


Also, libertarian fantasies aside, smoking is not just a public health issue, but an economic one. People may think they have the freedom to smoke, and they do, but when they are dying in hospitals from debilitating cancers, well, shit, the massive expenses raise the rates for EVERYBODY, even worse still if they don't have private insurance and rely on the government. Then its our tax dollars at work paying for a suicidal dumbass.

Rob, glad you quit, I also smoked a pack and half of Winstons for 10 years. I quit like you, because I noticed the negative health effects starting..

Smoking is like ALL drug abuse, it is needlessly caustic and self-destructive, however we have more or less accepted it as "normal" behavior in adults. Thankfully public attitudes are changing rapidly over the past 10-15 years.. Here in LA you are literally more likely to see people smoking POT on the street than a cigarette, and you're more likely to get harassed by some passerby for smoking a cigarette than a joint.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

imagine the fucking impossibility of the political project i am advocating here.

telling people the truth - they have no self, intentionality or free will, then trying to organize ourselves in such a way to put a stop to what are highly profitable drug selling operations. the very things that allow us a (momentarily) pleasurable sensation of death

You propose something that takes free will to do.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

yeah. but i am all out of hacks!

have you looked at what are the payoffs of smoking though? what's the reward?

it's easy to say "cigarettes are terrible" because it's what everyone says, but it's much harder to say "cigarettes are delicious because…" and write a long fucking list of reasons.

and i'm not asking you for cigarettes as a universal entity.

i'm asking-- what are cigarettes to you? What do they give you? I'm not asking you to give me a pre-canned response, what you already know, cigarette executives made you do it. Rather, I'm suggesting the use of observation, note taking, experimentation, analysis. etc., to find out what makes smoking such a great passion. Break the experience into all of the components you can notice-- physiological, emotional, sensory, intellectual, etc. What are the triggers, how is satisfaction achieved… Take time to get to know your circuits. From the initial purchase to cleaning the ashtray to the next purchase.

Or, as an animal--learn to stalk your prey before you try to chase it. What it eats. Where it eats. When. How it reacts to the weather. Where it sleeps. Etc.

I didn't say it wouldn't be a lot of work ha ha ha. But it can be fun if you have the inclination.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Its simple math, smoking causes lung cancer, period, end of discussion. Even more it contributes to all kinds of different cancers. There is no debate about this, the science you all love so much is quite conclusive about this. Its not a conspiracy from tobacco companies, these carcinogens are naturally occurring in the plant, its part of its evolutionary survival mechanism. Nicotine is a great drug for humans who weigh over a hundred pounds, but for insects that weigh less than grams it is an instant nerve toxin..

Its not just cancer, because nicotine causes vascular restriction for about 20 minutes after ingestion it is also a significant contributing factor in heart disease and heart attacks which actually kill more smokers than cancer. There is really no way around this..


Also, libertarian fantasies aside, smoking is not just a public health issue, but an economic one. People may think they have the freedom to smoke, and they do, but when they are dying in hospitals from debilitating cancers, well, shit, the massive expenses raise the rates for EVERYBODY, even worse still if they don't have private insurance and rely on the government. Then its our tax dollars at work paying for a suicidal dumbass.

Rob, glad you quit, I also smoked a pack and half of Winstons for 10 years. I quit like you, because I noticed the negative health effects starting..

Smoking is like ALL drug abuse, it is needlessly caustic and self-destructive, however we have more or less accepted it as "normal" behavior in adults. Thankfully public attitudes are changing rapidly over the past 10-15 years.. Here in LA you are literally more likely to see people smoking POT on the street than a cigarette, and you're more likely to get harassed by some passerby for smoking a cigarette than a joint.

what are the most money making products? the addictive ones. Gambling, porn, cigarrettes, food/sugar, ALCOHOL worst of all. Cash rules everything around the USA.

[dead_battery]

we're already living in a state which could very easily lock me up and forcibly medicate me for making those comments where i fantasize about becoming a terrorist and giving tobacco company execs lung cancer.

the algorithms that are scanning this post are sorting it for key words right now.

clinging to the delusion of free will is like having an advertisement for your own fucking enslavement and death emanating from your own fucking mouth!

and speaking out against it is social suicide for an animal that has darwinian reasons for making itself look like its in control.

there's BIG PROFIT in addiction. BIG FUCKING PROFIT.

did you know that when the financial crash happened in 08, one of the american banks hired an analyst who discovered that something like 70% of the entire economies assets were criminal in some way.

this entire fucking edifice is propped up by addiction, crime, cannibalization.

and we're the fucking cattle! begging for scraps from the fucking table, trapped in a videogamed reality in which we're constantly monitored, assessed, survielled, and subjected to neuro hacks to get us to SPEND NOW and CONSUME MORE.

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

There is no purpose nor reason for existing. we all innately know this but we shy away from it and run to religion, or metaphysics, or some sort of surrogate that gives our lives "purpose."

I love life. I love to enjoy good food, good cigars. I wish I could drink cold beers on hot days but I am allergic to alcohol, so no go there. I enjoy learning. I enjoy art and music and making art.

These things are enough fro me to consider life worthy and to consider my life well lived.

I hope you can find somethings that make life beautiful dead_battery. I bet you have some but they are overshadowed by the suckage. I do not mean to assume, just wondering.

addiction of any kind is not rational. it is not a decision. The decision comes in fighting the addiction, at all cost, even to the death.

yeah yeah i hear this everywhere over and over again.

beauty - enjoyment. over and over again.

it means shit to me. i will stake my lonely little patch of bitter fucking dirt and scream over and over again about all this, and refuse to play the game of pretending to find an alternative but struggling and screaming about this shit until i annoy people so much they want to murder me.

if i die of lung cancer id like to have some tobacco exec kidnapped and someone to force my decomposing cancerous lungs down his fucking throat. that would be "enjoyable".

it makes me feel sick to even talk like i enjoy anything. and im pretty sure beauty and death are exactly the same thing for mammals like us.

[dead_battery]

the fact is - we HAVE to recognize this as a collective ethical catastrophe and not an individual personal problem to be overcome by adjustment to life in a way that makes us hedonic and compliant.

[dead_battery]

i REFUSE to accept that this is my fault.

it's not my fault. its not the alcoholics fault.

for me, it'll just be cancer or something. the alcoholic might beat his wife to death or smash his car into someone.

the parent who is an addict can end up seriously damaging their kids lives because of it.

i fucking refuse to accept that the answer is to just say "all we can do is find different enjoyments."

no, that alcoholic has been neurologically hacked for profit, and in fact, by taking this position and absolving him of the FALSE responsibility of magically overriding the physical state of his brain with a supernatural conceptual construct of will, I am the one whose actually defending true free will here.