[dead_battery]

i think that when the addict wishes to quit, and chooses to quit, even though this is a delusion, THIS is his REAL free will as far as the term is useful. and so its incredibly cruel to tell him "fucking try harder".

the fact is the object of his addiction overpowers his real choice and his real desire, which for so many of us is to quit. it REALLY IS what we REALLY want, and it doesn't happen because of NEURO PHYSICAL processes and commercial systems that our will cannot overpower.

so again, i'll make the point that its my position that is the true defence of free will.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

telling a knife wielding maniac not to stab someone is not enough. you can't just go "well gee officer, i told him not to stab all those people, what more do you want from me?"

if you are there and you can see he's gonna do it you have to tackle the fucker!

hey, you might not have a direct scan of the interior of his brain that would allow you to observe the cogitations and data that indicate "extreme psychosis, cortisol levels rising, imminent intent to stab random strangers". but you see him salivating and staring at people and hear him ranting about his mother and god planting bugs under his skin or whatever.

so you do the right thing and try and stop him.

i mean, when you see a man whose an alcoholic, you already know his kids are highly likely to have the same genes. we could screen them! we could stop alcohol from being sold to these people, or at least make it incredibly difficult. we could show them their genomes, we could explain to them. we could scan their brains and detect addiction before it starts. we could do all this ethically, and only resort to coercion if they break laws and do serious damage to others. we are smart enough to pull this off without becoming nazis

yes, but i can't go to your house and take away your cigarettes and lock you up in a closet and feed you under the door. and you particularly showed up here expressing desperation.

this is not the official city fire brigade-- this is your neighbor handing you a water bucket.

from the distance, the best i can do is suggest a difficult hack: study your addiction reward system (from self-observation, from literature), then disconnect or replace each addiction reward circuit with benevolent ones, as you identify them. it is definitely not easy nor quick, and many people will still be fucked regardless, but if you were lucky enough to receive intelligent genes from your ancestors you stand a non-universal chance to save your ass-- a temporary, non-universal solution.

of course it doesn't end there-- the less capable are still being fucked, and we need social change, but who is going to fight for it if everyone is sick? i'm not suggesting you hack your addiction out of existence in order to "prove free will" but rather for sheer survival. then you can go and give the fuckers throat cancer and cackle over their sick corpses. but survival first.

[Rob Instigator]

you have free will to choose whatever you want to do. Most people do not put their free will to use, instead just doing what is expected of them at every turn, because IT IS EASY

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

you have free will to choose whatever you want to do. Most people do not put their free will to use, instead just doing what is expected of them at every turn, because IT IS EASY

free will appears obvious when things are going your way.

when the tsunami is dragging you away, not so much.

[Rob Instigator]

BTW, very few people get to "lie in a deathbed" regretting things and being proud of things. Most of us die quick, horrible, pointless deaths. THEREFORE, we should just live life as we see fit, without hurting other's ability to do the same.

[dead_battery]

you're implying that i just need to want it more.

as if i dont want to never do it again or something? as if in the moment when i smoke, it's desire going "wrong". so i just need this magic x that will will make my desire be good.

it's not like that. we can't extricate ourselves from the catastrophe then talk about social change.

the points im making have to be intensified and screamed louder - and constantly, as a chorus by the people who are being hacked as they are being hacked. the process of addiction should not be silenced, because this is how society ignores/controls it and relegates it out of the picture.

in the same way that we had to see the cancerous lungs before we believed it, because the tobacco companies LIED for years and funded propaganda for their lies.

its useless to do the whole "repentant junkie" routine. i overcame it and so can you! buy my shitty book!

fuck that!

[Rob Instigator]

I like the green herb, and I enjoy a cigar now and then, and I enjoy quality food.

Those are my physical "vices" if you will. Any of these can kill me and I could give a fuck. It would be better than dying in an auto accident, because of some asshole's negligence, because of a fire, or because of a murder, or because a million reasons.

Some people are smokers and some are not. Just deal with it. If smoking does not give you pleasure any more, then don;t buy smokes. get rid of your smokes. stop hanging out with smokers. stop going to places where you would smoke. It is hard but so is learning how to eat pussy, and yet both are sooooo satisfying......

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

free will appears obvious when things are going your way.

when the tsunami is dragging you away, not so much.

I disagree. I'd say free-will becomes MOST apparent precisely when it is taken away by circumstance, because the people definitely don't WANT to be dragged away by the Tsunami. Simple way to discover free-will.. Tell a 3 year old, "No!" when they ask for something and see the reaction. That temper tantrum and pouting? Yeah. Consequence of free-will being denied gratification.

[dead_battery]

it makes it so fucking comfortable for everybody when junkies die in slow silence and survivors talk about PERSONAL struggles and everyone congratulates their (imaginary) selves for their (imaginary) free will which they of course will exercise the right way because they're so fucking smart and awesome.

meanwhile the brain that you are blind to is doing its thing. producing the fiction you take as your self.

that brain is wandering around a fucking maze of addictive traps designed to turn it into a money acquiring then depositing machine. hacking it, using it up, leaving the ruins for all the other brains around it to suffer/clean up.

and the brains of rich people are sitting their rationalizing their detachment, pulling the levers, funding the schemes and traps, and bragging about their portfolios.

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Some people are smokers and some are not. Just deal with it. If smoking does not give you pleasure any more, then don;t buy smokes. get rid of your smokes. stop hanging out with smokers. stop going to places where you would smoke.

no offence but no and fuck you!

i wont "deal with it" and i wont shut up.

i wont talk about this like its just up to me and thats it.

ive binned my smokes a hundred times! done all the things you suggest.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Some people are smokers and some are not. Just deal with it. If smoking does not give you pleasure any more, then don;t buy smokes. get rid of your smokes. stop hanging out with smokers. stop going to places where you would smoke. It is hard but so is learning how to eat pussy, and yet both are sooooo satisfying......

this is american hyper-individualism, and while it makes sense on the surface, it doesn't accurately reflect the way things are. life is difficult and reality is complicated. our choices and behavior are constantly being shaped by our environment. the individual doesn't exist in a vacuum. actually, the individual is defined by society. how can society define the individual and then disappear out of existence?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

you're implying that i just need to want it more.

as if i dont want to never do it again or something? as if in the moment when i smoke, it's desire going "wrong". so i just need this magic x that will will make my desire be good.

There are no magic x's, if anything, cigarettes or other "habits" are futile attempts at finding that magic x. What is the futility? As the Buddha suggested, "Suffering is caused by attachment or desire." There is no magic cure for attachment, it is a matter of learning how to let it go gradually. Even God(s) isn't magical enough to negate attachment instantaneously, its part of our human nature. The meaning of life is again, learning this reality of ourselves and learning better how to manage and deal with it on a daily basis.

[dead_battery]

it fucking irritates me to be told to shut up and enjoy.

shut up and enjoy. everyday. everywhere. a fucking chorus of morons. over and over again. meanwhile the disaster goes on. mass suffering. but we should just shut up and enjoy.

its really fun to sneer at people who can't/don't/won't shut up and enjoy, cos they look like they are actually feeling something and that's not cool.

male posturing. idiotic fucking male posturing. a chorus of monkeys all screaming the same individualist script, like their rehash of individualist ideology is so fucking unique, like everyone hasnt heard it a million times already, like it actually works or signifies something other than redundancy.

[Rob Instigator]

never said you should shut up. I like conversing with you.

I am saying that the energy you put forth railing against the system set up to fuck you, is better served in active decisions and choices that would benefit you.

I had to do it. I am not special. I was an addicted human who loves cigarettes more than you could ever imagine. but when the shit hits the fan, you either choose to change your habit, or you choose to stay in your habit. simple as pie.

the one thing that differentiates us from the animals is our ability to make our decisions based on conscious thought as opposed to sensory reflex. That is what is referrred to by the concept of free will. without free will human would never have mastered fire, would never have been able to create agriculture, or any of the many things which make our lives possible the way they are.

[dead_battery]

the fire found us. the cigarettes smoke us. etc.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

this is american hyper-individualism, and while it makes sense on the surface, it doesn't accurately reflect the way things are. life is difficult and reality is complicated. our choices and behavior are constantly being shaped by our environment. the individual doesn't exist in a vacuum. actually, the individual is defined by society. how can society define the individual and then disappear out of existence?

defining the individual is not what we are talking about. we are talking about the act of purchasing smokes, lighting one up, and inhaling it's smoke. you wanna stop? don't DO IT ANYMORE. If you cannot do that, then you need help doing it, and there is no shame in asking for help.

[dead_battery]

you can all tell me OVER AND OVER AGAIN to deal with this as an individual and i can just stop listening or responding to this fucking redundant shit. as if i need to be told this.

do it yourself, make a choice. blah blah fucking blah.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

good choices to me are a fucking vain pretension.

maybe they work as a kind of retrospective description of the way you lived. you chose a route to death that involved maximum peaceful co existence. you helped others, you worked and kept civilization going. you made things or fixed things or something. a good life.

this is what i want. but talking about choices and free will is folk psychological superstition, or just plain showing off.

talking about free will and choice as if they exist independently from reality, that thing which determines what options there are for a person, is just ethically irresponsible.

No good choices are about simple math. If (a) than (b).. If (a) people ingest plants/substances which are biologically harmful to homeostasis, then (b) there will be biologically negative consequences. If (a) people make destructive decisions in their relationships with other humans then (b) those abused humans will react or retaliate in a negative way. If (a) we make decisions to hurt ourselves psychologically with negative or self-defeating thought processes or internal dialogue, then (b) we will gradually erode and destroy ourselves.

The meaning of life is to make good decisions. Not in some kind vain, self-seeking way, humans evolutionarily speaking or social creatures, we can't survive independent of other humans. If we make decisions that hurt other humans out of selfishness, we are actually hurting ourselves. Hence, making better decisions improves life.

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

defining the individual is not what we are talking about. we are talking about the act of purchasing smokes, lighting one up, and inhaling it's smoke. you wanna stop? don't DO IT ANYMORE. If you cannot do that, then you need help doing it, and there is no shame in asking for help.

its not about me. its a collective problem and theres a collective solution. i am not fucking interested in being told AGAIN that i need to deal with it individually. how many fucking times do you guys want to tell me this, like it even means anything?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

never said you should shut up. I like conversing with you.

I am saying that the energy you put forth railing against the system set up to fuck you, is better served in active decisions and choices that would benefit you.
.

no. part of it maybe, but not all.


he has enough energy to survive and then some.

he probably needs a little more energy towards survival but his social criticism is far from futile.

no fucking way.