[SONIC GAIL]

I do not disagree with you. Just lettin everyone know a bit about the gun evironment in these parts. I mean how many 73 year old women carry a gun????

[FreshChops]

Originally Posted by knox

or perhaps they are just secretly waiting for something to happen so they have the chance to kill someone without the legal consequences?

personally, if you're worried about safety and somebody breaks into your house you'll try to a) leave b) hide c) call the police

the idea of walking around the house or standing there with a gun is way riskier but i guess thats what you to do if you're thinking this is my chance to shoot someone.

Oh boy! this is so wrong in so many ways.....

your post are driven by naive, negative stereotyping and full of double standards.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by deflinus

Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face.

simpsons quote right? love it. "king" of england...

[Rob Instigator]

so many terribel analogies lately here


Cars

Cars are built to go very very fast. As in, most cars go upwards of 120 mph, and many go up to 180-200 mph.
the LAW states in USA that no one ever is to go above 75-80 mph (top speed in remote interstates in Texas)
does everyone that buys a car secretely dr3eam about taking that car up to 130 mph? some do, sure, but EVERY CAR does this, and not every person is out ther driving ridiculous or stupid fast or taking stupid vehicular risks.


around 43% of the USA population owns a gun of some kind. (that is around 100 million people) to assume they all own the gun just waiting, with itchy trigger fingers, for the opportunity to shoot someone, is just patently absurd.

[ann ashtray]

It's almost as absurd as a belief system that feels as if Jesus Christ instilled some sort of moral value into mankind that wasn't there before he came. As if we'd all be killing/raping/stealing from each other had JC never stepped foot on planet earth.

Most people don't want to kill others.
Most don't want to steal.
Most don't want to rape.

And even IF they feel like doing some of these things, they don't. Most don't, that is.

There's always going to be a few bad apples...sometimes they need to be weeded out. If I saw someone raping my mom, I would attempt to kill them. If someone was in my house wanting to kill me, I would try and kill them first.

Hiding in the closet trying to call the cops isn't always possible. A gun on my night stand might be, though.

[gualbert]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

There's always going to be a few bad apples...

Yeah..and one bad apple can spoil the whole basket (ie conscription).

[SONIC GAIL]

spoil the whole damn bunch

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

does everyone that buys a car secretely dr3eam about taking that car up to 130 mph?

well, yeah don't they?
otherwise, what's the reason for wanting to buy a fast car?

so much they had to stop companies for showing fast cars on tv adverts and regulate advertising being focused on speed, true story.

[Rob Instigator]

They are ALL that fast knox. Even the shittiest 4 cylinder engine can take a Little hatchback to 110mph

but the capability being available does NOT translate into everyone feeling they have to use it. dig?

same goes for guns, knives, weapons of any sort.

[knox]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

Oh boy! this is so wrong in so many ways.....

your post are driven by naive, negative stereotyping and full of double standards.

I'm not saying this is the case for everyone who buys a gun, but it's certainly the case for some.

There are some interesting psychological aspects there, no one can deny there's a feeling of power involved. But ultimately I'd say, in general, people with guns expose themselves to more risk in dangerous situations, and perhaps overestimate their powers a bit.

Also, if someone is using a gun to intimidate you and get your belongings, most of the time it's not their intention to actually shoot. Now, if you wanna be all macho and defend yourself with your own gun, what choice will the criminal have? Well, he's already a criminal he's less afraid to kill than you are and surely handles guns way more often.

That's the thing with guns, you can easily over or underestimate them. They can only be in the hands of well trained practicing people, for the right reasons. Or maybe not even that, because human judgement is faulty.

I see that people like to compare cars to guns, however no one responded to the fact that in the US: a) driving is not a RIGHT, it's a permission b) the process of getting/keeping a permit to drive seems to be way stricter than the one required to get/keep a gun - so discuss that please.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

They are ALL that fast knox. Even the shittiest 4 cylinder engine can take a Little hatchback to 110mph

but the capability being available does NOT translate into everyone feeling they have to use it. dig?

same goes for guns, knives, weapons of any sort.

They don't have to use it, but they like the idea that they CAN - otherwise what would be the point for the industry to do this?
They cannot use it, because they are FORBIDDEN to do so. Reason why you have to forbid it.

What an interesting thing tho, a whole industry advertising something people cannot use, just for the POSSIBILITY.

But nevermind, you missed the original point.

It's a human thing, this feeling of power.

I need the fastest car, even tho I can't use it, but I might, one day, who knows. I need a gun, even tho I don't wanna use it, but I like the feeling of power/reassurance, who knows. I have all these shoes I can never wear, I want more money than I can ever spend.

[FreshChops]

Criminals like owning a firearm for the feeling of "power".

All others like owning a firearm for a sense of "self defense"

what would the ratios look like for number of firearms owned responsibly and without incident vs. firearms used for murder?

I insist, just because YOU can not operate a firearm, doesn't make it illogical for others to own them. You're forcing your will, limited by your own insecurities onto others... lame.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

I'm not saying this is the case for everyone who buys a gun, but it's certainly the case for some.

There are some interesting psychological aspects there, no one can deny there's a feeling of power involved. But ultimately I'd say, in general, people with guns expose themselves to more risk in dangerous situations, and perhaps overestimate their powers a bit.

Also, if someone is using a gun to intimidate you and get your belongings, most of the time it's not their intention to actually shoot. Now, if you wanna be all macho and defend yourself with your own gun, what choice will the criminal have? Well, he's already a criminal he's less afraid to kill than you are and surely handles guns way more often.

That's the thing with guns, you can easily over or underestimate them. They can only be in the hands of well trained practicing people, for the right reasons. Or maybe not even that, because human judgement is faulty.

I see that people like to compare cars to guns, however no one responded to the fact that in the US: a) driving is not a RIGHT, it's a permission b) the process of getting/keeping a permit to drive seems to be way stricter than the one required to get/keep a gun - so discuss that please.

Just because someone is a criminal, doesn't mean they handle guns more often. That, too, is absurd. People enjoy shooting ranges and target practice as a hobby. Most people that break into houses probably DO NOT have guns, either. That isn't the idea. Owning a gun (for those that do own them....) does provide a sense of empowerment, this you are right about. A sense of being able to protect one's self/family/property. I for one DO feel as if it should be ok to shoot someone for breaking into my apartment....even IF they do not have a gun. I don't know, I don't wanna know...I just know they don't belong there, and my hard earned belongings/friends are there are to be protected.

Human judgment is faulty. There have always been, and always will be setbacks. It's how we are hardwired. The centers of our brains, after all, are very reptilian in nature (this IS a proven fact). Sadly, there are a few out there that are way more in tune with that part of the brain, than the remaining vast majority of society. Taking guns away isn't going to fix anything....nothing. I'm sure the Black Panthers are a clear demonstration as to what can happen. PEOPLE WILL FIGHT TO KEEP THEIR GUNS, AS THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO. If guns were outlawed, the government could do absolutely anything it wanted. Bad idea/scary idea.

Cars can be far more dangerous than guns...and driving them should be a privilege. Guns should be a right, + it's a right most that own them do not take advantage of. Almost everyone does stupid shit at one point or another behind the wheel of a automobile.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

Criminals like owning a firearm for the feeling of "power".

All others like owning a firearm for a sense of "self defense"

what would the ratios look like for number of firearms owned responsibly and without incident vs. firearms used for murder?

I insist, just because YOU can not operate a firearm, doesn't make it illogical for others to own them. You're forcing your will, limited by your own insecurities onto others... lame.

Yeah, she seems maybe a bit delusional and paranoid in the worst of ways. Of course, she could just be fucking with everyone...but, haha, I don't think she is.

Whatever though, I give knox cred. 'cause at least she has the ability to explain her stance. I can appreciate that. She's smart...just don't agree with much she says. I mean, we could be arguing w/ jon boy and keeping it simple...that would be horrible.

[knox]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

Criminals like owning a firearm for the feeling of "power".

All others like owning a firearm for a sense of "self defense"

what would the ratios look like for number of firearms owned responsibly and without incident vs. firearms used for murder?

I insist, just because YOU can not operate a firearm, doesn't make it illogical for others to own them. You're forcing your will, limited by your own insecurities onto others... lame.

it's been said a million times before, MOST victims are murdered by someone they know/love/trust. Since they are not expecting it, having a gun doesn't help much.

it's been said a million times, more guns = more murders, in terms of stats. Also in terms on stats, people's chances of getting hurt/killed in the event of crime increased when they own a gun and attempt to use it.

it's been said a million times before, ONE owning a gun puts OTHERS at risk potentially, so the whole forcing your will thing cannot apply there logically speaking.

it's been said a million times before, MOST crimes happen with guns once purchased legally.

So you may continue the discussion, as long as you aknowledge those simple facts.

[knox]

Guys, one more time: guns are not cars. Stop that, it's getting silly.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

it's been said a million times before, MOST victims are murdered by someone they know/love/trust. Since they are not expecting it, having a gun doesn't help much.

it's been said a million times, more guns = more murders, in terms of stats. Also in terms on stats, people's chances of getting hurt/killed in the event of crime increased when they own a gun and attempt to use it.

it's been said a million times before, ONE owning a gun puts OTHERS at risk potentially, so the whole forcing your will thing cannot apply there logically speaking.

it's been said a million times before, MOST crimes happen with guns once purchased legally.

So you may continue the discussion, as long as you aknowledge those simple facts.

Let's break this down. Most are murdered be ones they love/trust...ok, how many of these murders involve guns? All of em? No way. Would these people likely be killed regardless of wether or not a gun was involved...yes.

No, crime rates in certain areas HAVE dropped due to citizens being allowed to carry firearms. Again, most people DON"T want to kill.

And in this case, "potentially" is such a stupid, stupid, stupid word. That can apply to literally anything. Don't drive a car, potential accidents may occur. Don't send yr teenager to the mall alone, he/she may potentially be raped/sold drugs. Don't use prescription drugs, potential side effects including suicide may occur. I can go on and on and on w/ this shit.

Consider these some "simple FACTS" for you to acknowledge.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

Guys, one more time: guns are not cars. Stop that, it's getting silly.

No.

I'm going to reword shit you've already said:

ONE person owning a car puts OTHERS at risk.

Owning a car can potentially cause death/harm to others.


Same issue. Cars are just as freakin' dangerous. If it's safety yr concerned about, go all the way. Why do anything half-assed?

[knox]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Let's break this down. Most are murdered be ones they love/trust...ok, how many of these murders involve guns? All of em?

A significant amount of them. A good amount by legal gun owners too.
Not to mention the chance of defense/survival being better with other "methods".
And the majority of those murders considered not to be planned, heated/moment/passionate kind of crimes they call it.

[knox]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

No.

I'm going to reword shit you've already said:

ONE person owning a car puts OTHERS at risk.

Owning a car can potentially cause death/harm to others.


Same issue. Cars are just as freakin' dangerous. If it's safety yr concerned about, go all the way. Why do anything half-assed?

Right, but:

a) cars are not made to kill things, they have a purpose and in most places they are actually needed. (tho it would be ideal to try and eliminate the need for them as much as possible in urban places).

b) when I drive a car I'm aware of the risks, and ideally, properly trained for it. On the other hand, I may be completely unaware and defenseless when someone uses a gun. And that's the thing with guns: they are the most coward, efficient way to kill people. They're usually not expecting it, and haven't got much chance to defend themselves and it does a lot of damage. When I'm driving I have to be aware, I can choose not to drive if I find it too risky. On the other hand, I can't choose or predict when someone might wanna shoot at me in a shopping mall, therefore that RIGHT is conflicting with my RIGHT to be safe.

You say you need a gun to protect yourself, but no one can TRULY be protected against guns.

c) you need a permit, and you need to renew it constantly, driving is not a right. it makes no sense that owning a gun is a RIGHT, and the process of getting one is way easier?