[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Rob, religions don't teach of ANY particular details about the experience of the Afterlife in the concrete sense. It is unknowable. Also, if there is a God(s) capable of creating and sustaining 13.4 BILLION years of Multiverse as well as the potentiality of 11 simultaneous, interacting dimensions, how could our limited, mortal, human minds even remotely speak this God(s) language? Shit, I can't even understand the corny engineering jokes my younger engineering program college students share on our sunday school facebook page! How could I fathom the mind of God? Only if this entity decides on His own account to reveal Him/Her/Itself to us.. and even then? Would I be paying attention?

The major problem with most peoples' perception of religion in our contemporary world is as a superstitious speculation on the afterlife. that is NOT religion. Religion is a system of beliefs and cultural patterns to help make sense of and navigate this very complex world of relationships and human interactions with other humans/nature in the present tense. Theology is to concede at its core that (a) the future doesn't yet exist and (b) the past has already happened so we ONLY TRULY EXIST IN THE PRESENT MOMENT. Yet, the human brain is in essence a computer, it can measure, and take measurements very accurately. The problem with measuring is it doesn't work well in the present tense. The brain is always trying to ignore the present moment, and focus on either its fears/fantasies of the future or its memories/regrets of the past. In the realm of the mind (future and past) the brain is God, whereas in the present moment? The brain is absolutely powerless..

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Rob, religions don't teach of ANY particular details about the experience of the Afterlife in the concrete sense..

that is very NOT true. the Catholics have Heaven, Hell and Purgatory with very specific deets about each.

The Hebrews have very specific details about what Sheol will be like

The Zoroastrians did, the Muslims do, the Hindus do, the protestant Christians Most DEF do.

The Buddhists do not, and the Shinto religion of Japan does not, but they do not believe in an afterlife or any true "supernatural" life. divinity to them is in each of us.

The Mormon faith specifically dictates what the final afterlife is like. (planets!)

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

The Catholics do NOT teach the concrete details of the future. The very premise of the "Last Judgment" is that Catholics DON'T KNOW for sure what will be the outcome, and this in turn is intended to motivate Catholics into a deep reflection about how to better appreciate and navigate THIS life in the present tense, because we can't positively affect the Last Judgment, but if we live recklessly, selfishly, we can surely negatively tip the scales.

Orthodox Hebraism as reflected in the Torah and the Prophets does NOT speculate about the Afterlife. "Sheol" is simply a place of death, like a cosmic waiting room. In fact, the Hebrew authors described Sheol in very nihilistic terms of nothingness, the absence of life, the negation of opportunity to experience God(s). Again as with the Catholics, this nihilistic sense of Death is intended to add stronger emphasis on THE PRESENT LIFE, not the future, because in Hebrew thought Death is an absence of God, where Life is the only opportunity to build that relationship and seek the liberating freedom of Grace.

The Muslims? Well they got A LOT of shit mixed up, but the 70 virgins in Paradise is NOT what we could call "orthodox" in any sense, rather, it is about as disorganized superstition as exists in those nudists Baptist churches in West Virgina or the late Westboro folks.. Superstitious speculation about the future that is not supported by an exegesis of the Sacred Texts or the Holy Traditions is NOT religion, it is by definition HERESY.

As to the Mystery cults you mentioned, well, interesting to note, while they did focus on superstitious speculation on the future and the Afterlife, notice they didn't spend enough time cultivating a working system to navigate and survive the present world, and so their "religions" are no longer active or existent..

You're busy skimming the surface of shallow arguments, and straw men at that. Theology is about diving into the murky depths..

Again, the conclusion of Theology is (a) the future (including any speculation about the Afterlife) doesn't yet exist and (b) the past has already happened, so we only exist in and have the present moment to focus on.

[dead_battery]

you can play the game of "but thats not true religion" and of course there are higher aspects and more refined thinking.

but for me, religion was being TOLD that there is a god and a devil who literally exist. you don't get to discuss when you are being told about this, you are interrogated with questions that ask you to regurgitate the lies you've just been told. if you cough or say the wrong thing, then expect to be subject to humiliation. if you say you're atheist be prepared to be bullied.

you are told, very specifically, what the afterlife is. even though it doesnt make sense and is based on lies, you are told it is real. you are told that science proves the bible based on whatever fallacious concoction of bullshit the idiots 'teaching' you have heard from their church. you are not allowed to know about other religions. you can ask but you won't be told about them.

this is my experience growing up in a hardcore protestant country.

the christians here LITERALLY believe in witches and the "dark arts". they think these satanic demons are lurking around every corner of this country. that's what they tell you - with no sense that its metaphorical.

christofascist bumpkins, fundie authoritarian scum, they run this country. liberals are the minority, in government and everywhere else.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

you can play the game of "but thats not true religion" and of course there are higher aspects and more refined thinking.

True, hence why I'm playing

but for me, religion was being TOLD that there is a god and a devil who literally exist. you don't get to discuss when you are being told about this, you are interrogated with questions that ask you to regurgitate the lies you've just been told. if you cough or say the wrong thing, then expect to be subject to humiliation. if you say you're atheist be prepared to be bullied.

Exactly, but as with your wise words posted about about being careful on the Bodhisattva path and about how the Texts are preserved while many of the current permutations of the "religion" are inherently corrupted, the religion you experienced was NOT what the Texts/Traditions originally taught or continue teach..

you are told, very specifically, what the afterlife is. even though it doesnt make sense and is based on lies, you are told it is real. you are told that science proves the bible based on whatever fallacious concoction of bullshit the idiots 'teaching' you have heard from their church. you are not allowed to know about other religions. you can ask but you won't be told about them.

Again, the question is WHO told you these very specifics? Its not in the Bible. Its not in the Canons. Its not in the Patristics. Its not in the Commentaries. Its not in the Prayer books or the Missals. Its ONLY in the superstitions popularly ascribed as being religion and yet which are not supported by an exegesis of the Texts, cultures, or canonized Tradition.

But like Lavar always said, "You don't have to take my word for it."

 

[dead_battery]

those experiences and the continued abuse, violence and authoritarian quasi fascist religiosity that runs and ruins this country (it literally keeps the schools divided and furthers the agenda of the terrorists on each side, and also cleanses their souls and pardons them when they murder people) DISGUSTS ME and i have a bad reaction to any kind of christianity. as far as im concerned, christianity has failed and i cannot make excuses for it!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

those experiences and the continued abuse, violence and authoritarian quasi fascist religiosity that runs and ruins this country (it literally keeps the schools divided and furthers the agenda of the terrorists on each side, and also cleanses their souls and pardons them when they murder people) DISGUSTS ME and i have a bad reaction to any kind of christianity. as far as im concerned, christianity has failed and i cannot make excuses for it!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dead_battery again.

I'm equally disgusted by it as you are and will equally not make excuses for such blatant corruption and moral hypocrisy. These complicated realities all the more make life feel like a tool song sometimes.. one long cosmic groaning.. However, surely we are all grown up enough to be able sort out the difference between the baby and the bathwater here

Pascal's Wager will always stand as a canker sore of Truth..

[dead_battery]

i dont see any benefit in believing in god, at least not in 2014. we have to move beyond this idea, even for the sake of the delusion we call morality.

[dead_battery]

what also disgusted me was the attitude of the liberals and sane people, who either accepted christianity totally or made excuses for it. what is so utterly nightmarish is the fact that in this country, anyone who could go beyond the fundie fascism is too afraid to do anything but lapse into a kind of hedonism. a kind of bad faith attitude of "oh well, all we can do is enjoy ourselves because there's probably no god."

i mean come on, there's definitely no god, but we can do a lot more than enjoy ourselves as commiseration for this stupid fucking delusion of omnipotence which is pretty useless in the first place.

i wish people had the courage to move beyond what is essentially - as suchfriends points out - a heretical version of religion. but they all seem to feel a deep guilt when they work out its not real, as if KNOWING THIS is a sad thing, because they've somehow corrupted the potential of humanities good intentions with their sinful knowledge.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

I feel you. However, you're not being scientific about it. Agnosticism is much more realistic an approach than atheism. Atheism is as religiously a matter of blind faith as religion, both are not able to be proven by any kind of substantive evidence, rather are experiential philosophies.. I believe in God not as a matter of principle, but out of my own personal experience. I respect those like yourself who don't share that experience, but dead_battery, if you're caustic to those who you disagree with then you're no better or different than the self-righteous hypocrites you're condemning.

In other words, its like my Grandmomz taught me rest her soul, "I'd complain but I don't think it'd do me any good." Be nice about it, which more or less you have been lately, and I sincerely respect and appreciate that by the way

[dead_battery]

the injunction to be nice and debate people over things which are DELUSIONAL is not acceptable to me.

there is NOTHING realistic about theism. atheism is NOT blind faith no matter how desperately religious apologists want to knock it down to their level.

atheism is not enough for me because it still beleives that belief matters. i am a non theist, insofar as i even need a term. there is no god, no evidence for god, and until some arrives (which it never will) there is nothing reasonable about even entertaining the idea that we should even CARE about this concept.

i wont get into another circular argument. i dont believe your experience offers any evidence of god. mine certainly has had moments that felt like mystical divinity was present, but this can be explained and understood a lot better without recourse to a term which reeks of humanities worship of patriarchal supernaturalism.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

the injunction to be nice and debate people over things which are DELUSIONAL is not acceptable to me.

But here is ontological fly in your ointment. If you sincerely believe the people are you chatting with are deluded, then how exactly will you ever convince them? Better too just nod politely and carry on elsewhere..

there is NOTHING realistic about theism. atheism is NOT blind faith no matter how desperately religious apologists want to knock it down to their level.

Again, there is a contradiction in your ontology here.. The premise of science is that no knowledge is concrete, understand evolves and changes over time as we experience more of the Universe. Science is ALWAYS open for new discovers, where as stubborn atheism limits this process of discovery.

atheism is not enough for me because it still beleives that belief matters. i am a non theist, insofar as i even need a term. there is no god, no evidence for god, and until some arrives (which it never will) there is nothing reasonable about even entertaining the idea that we should even CARE about this concept.

I can respect your nihilism, its seems reasonable all things considering, and I will be the absolute first to concede the reality that God is more improbable than not, but then again, that is kind of the point of God in the first place right? An unrealistic and improbable entity..

i wont get into another circular argument. i dont believe your experience offers any evidence of god. mine certainly has had moments that felt like mystical divinity was present, but this can be explained and understood a lot better without recourse to a term which reeks of humanities worship of patriarchal supernaturalism.

I'm not arguing anything, just sharing or relating my differing perspective as part of our dialogue. If you want to have a close-minded, one-sided, tyrannical conversation, well, that is both unscientific, immoral, and unfriendly, and its precisely the approach of those smug, self-righteous hypocrites you so scornfully despise. In other words, you're becoming the very thing you hate. Hence why I said, "Play nice with the other children.."

In South Central we got a saying, "It is what it is."

[dead_battery]

you've done this before, trying to alter the facts of science by shifting it to just a manifestation of human discourses, thus bypassing the reality that it describes. a reality in which there is definitely no god.

i dont see myself as convincing anyone of anything, its delusions all the way down, including ME.

i won't be drawn into a 'debate' based on the premise that god could even exist, because he could not, does not, and never will.

science will never discover god, because there is none. you also know this.

end of conversation.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Science used to say the sun orbited the earth, and that disease was a mystery. Things change. I'm not arguing with you. I don't think I can convince you anything in particular, nor am I even interested. We're just having a conversation. I'm interested in and respect your perspective, but such has to be to a degree mutual, otherwise again, you're just being the very bully you condemn Christians of being. I'm NOT those people you despise and you surely have taken notice of that after all these years. I never dismiss what you say, I take it ALL into thoughtful consideration as friends should. We will be bound to have different opinions and feelings about a lot of things in life, but so long as we're nice to each other about it, then we can grow and learn from each other. If we're just dicks, well, folks are just going to get poked, because that is what dicks do, they poke things..

[Rob Instigator]

I self-classify as an anti-theist, as in I am personally against theistic belief, and feel that the ills of humanity for the most part are caused by the wars and battles to determine whose theistic beliefs are best.

There is a very big difference between the statement "I think there are no gods," and the statement "There IS no God"

and the opposite holds true. There is a big difference in teh statement "i feel that there is a consciousness greater than us." and "i know that my god is real"

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Science used to say the sun orbited the earth, and that disease was a mystery. Things change. I'm not arguing with you. I don't think I can convince you anything in particular, nor am I even interested. We're just having a conversation. I'm interested in and respect your perspective, but such has to be to a degree mutual, otherwise again, you're just being the very bully you condemn Christians of being. I'm NOT those people you despise and you surely have taken notice of that after all these years. I never dismiss what you say, I take it ALL into thoughtful consideration as friends should. We will be bound to have different opinions and feelings about a lot of things in life, but so long as we're nice to each other about it, then we can grow and learn from each other. If we're just dicks, well, folks are just going to get poked, because that is what dicks do, they poke things..

then lets not have conversations that go round in circles over things we've already argued about. the truth is i dont have anything to say.

[Rob Instigator]

science NEVER said the sun went around the Earth! RELIGION said that! inferred through the preeminent place of humans in God's creation! get your facts right! religion ridiculed and put galileo through the Holy Inquisition!!!! what scientist has ever ever ever ever tortured a theist to prove his science?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Rob, you're being silly and your chronology is off by about 1400 years yo. Ptolemy was NOT a priest or a sage, HE WAS A FUCKING 2ND CENTURY AD SCIENTIST, and yes, he wholeheartedly believed in the geocentric model (as did thousands of years of astronomers not to be confused with astrologers) and constructed awkward math to try and support the premise. Really, to the ancient mind the idea that the Earth is moving was simply unimaginable. Then again, it should have been intuitive, all you have to do is drink a few too many beers and suddenly the diurnal motion becomes obvious enough so as to become disorienting

[dead_battery]

can you change your sig to "posts brought to you live from the post modern dark age" please?

[dead_battery]

because the sheer DISHONESTY that you are spouting in this thread, and have done in a few others, is fucking staggering.

equivocate science with religious belief all you want, you lost that argument a long time ago and are now clinging on for the sake of sheer persistence. using geocentrism to trash science on behalf of religion is almost admirable in its sheer deviousness.