[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by evollove

^

To which the aliens might ask, "So, this rock n' roll thing is something only the white males of your species can do well?"

I'd be really surprised if aliens went straight for human race relations questions

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

because musical instruments are expensive, amps are expensive, and rehearsal space is expensive?

and also because in the inner city, while white folks did punk, hispanics and African americans created Hip Hop.

I don´t believe this is nothing to do with poverty of hispanic or/and african americans. Jimi was at the beginning poor as a fuck but he just got guitar to him & wanted to play anywhere he could. Also hip hop came much later than punk. I think it was also just rasicm and not just white racism. African americans kept Jimi´s music too "white". Also Death-members tell in that document, how almost everybody in their neighbourhood thought rock didn´t fit into coloured people. And the record company didn´t release their album saying they have to change their name. A little bit earlier Stooges & MC5 have released their album although they were as uncommercial that time as Death. Well, maybe they have little bit less "radical" name in their bands.

[Rob Instigator]

rock n roll was started by african americans. Hip Hop sprang forth mid 70's just like punk. (stooges and MC5 and such were forerunners, not of the same generation as the punks. ramones began punk. don't let anyone else tell you otherwise)

By the late 60's the money was in selling white acts to white audiences.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Yeah hiphop and punk both started in NYC in the mid 1970s

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

rock n roll was started by african americans. Hip Hop sprang forth mid 70's just like punk. (stooges and MC5 and such were forerunners, not of the same generation as the punks. ramones began punk. don't let anyone else tell you otherwise)

By the late 60's the money was in selling white acts to white audiences.

Yeah, you´re right. R´N`R was started By Chuck Berry, Little Richard etc and Elvis sold it to the white audiences. And after that there were very little known non-white rock artists. I haven´t been interested at Hip Hop, so I didn´t know before it has so early roots.

Anyway I am right about the rascism. Young people in the seventies had same kind of need to express themselves with the music, but the way how they did it was different cause the rascism between the white and the african americans. Also I think rasicm is the reason why Hip Hop become popular so much later than punk.

[evollove]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

I'd be really surprised if aliens went straight for human race relations questions

Alien universities are notoriously liberal.

[Rob Instigator]

Punk only became "popular" because the British have a desperate need for new acts to hype up, and punk was what caught the eye of their media for about 5 months.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

There have always been black folks playing in bands its just the "mainstream" that is largely whitewashed and for the obvious reasons of structural racism. Further even in the underground unfortunately scenes are as affected by this structural racism so we only find more adventurous people bridge the gap. However to be sure black folks still play in bands. Whether blues, or jazz, or rock or even metal and punk. Some of my favorite underground bands are from the afropunk scene

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

There have always been black folks playing in bands its just the "mainstream" that is largely whitewashed and for the obvious reasons of structural racism. Further even in the underground unfortunately scenes are as affected by this structural racism so we only find more adventurous people bridge the gap. However to be sure black folks still play in bands. Whether blues, or jazz, or rock or even metal and punk. Some of my favorite underground bands are from the afropunk scene

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

Yeah, you´re right. R´N`R was started By Chuck Berry, Little Richard etc and Elvis sold it to the white audiences. And after that there were very little known non-white rock artists. .

I don't really agree, I think there was a lot of music being made by black people up to the 70s that counts as rock n roll, but is just called either funk or soul or whatever. I mean Sly and The Family Stone, Parliament and Funkadelic, James Brown, etc etc that was all small groups with guitars, bass, drums who toured and played live, and wrote and recorded their own music. Sure there were stylistic differences with what white musicians were doing but it was essentially still rock.

[Rob Instigator]

T&B, funk music is not rock n roll. it is it's own monster. I try to define rock n roll as riff-based. a band without guitars like Morphine is rock n roll (or "low-rock" as Mr. Sandman would describe it, RIP) because the tunes are based on riffs.

other genre's, funk, ska, reggae, eetc, while sharing instrumentation with rock and cohabitating with rock, are not about the riff.

James Brown was never rock. he was a soul singer who helped create the genre of FUNK.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

T&B, funk music is not rock n roll. it is it's own monster. I try to define rock n roll as riff-based. a band without guitars like Morphine is rock n roll (or "low-rock" as Mr. Sandman would describe it, RIP) because the tunes are based on riffs.

other genre's, funk, ska, reggae, eetc, while sharing instrumentation with rock and cohabitating with rock, are not about the riff.

James Brown was never rock. he was a soul singer who helped create the genre of FUNK.

The only reason reggae can be sometimes lumped into the rock and roll category is old rock and roll bands were a huge influence over the earl 1960s reggae scene in the Caribbean. Reggae incorporates many elements of rock and roll bands, indeed I actually learned to play the up-stroke reggae "skank" strum patterns from having previously played Chuck Berry songs in a blues band I was in. Before that I could not even attempt reggae.. Also the lead work, fills, and riffs are heavily influenced by rock and roll bands.. Just listen to some Burning Spear or mid-70s Bob Marley and Wailers and you can hear the rock and roll influence bleeding through.. Possibly my bias as an instrument player of both reggae and old rock and roll, I can see it structurally underlying the very music itself, but perhaps the sound is pushed back a bit.

To be sure, I don't think it matters by "rock and roll HOF" standards, the realer issue is recognizing black contributions to music as a whole, which are extensive across every genre.

[Rob Instigator]

A lot of late Marley out put was "rocked up" by British record guys who wanted to make reggae sound more rock, and less dependent on riddim.

Until they start to call Little Richard the true King of Rock N Roll....

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

A lot of late Marley out put was "rocked up" by British record guys who wanted to make reggae sound more rock, and less dependent on riddim.

Until they start to call Little Richard the true King of Rock N Roll....

That is only partly true, you're talking about production, I'm talking about instrumentation.

Reggae was invented from upping the tempo on rock steady which was just strumming old rock and roll standards in a bit of a different pattern. All the early groups in Jamaica were getting their music from New Orleans radio stations. They listened to American rock and roll and soul music. It saturates their sound and their choice of covers.

To be sure, Burning Spear didn't work with any of those British producers and listen to the lead guitar in Spear albums or stageshows and tell me THAT isn't rock and roll!

[Rob Instigator]

rocksteady was a variant on ska. It all comes from R&B and soul music, not rock n roll

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Not so fast yo.. early Rock and Roll as definitely a huge influence on the early 1960s rock steady-ska-reggae scene! Indeed, dividing those three into a different genre is a bit disengenuous because in actuality it was THE SAME musicians making all three!

You are right about many things, but to negate the influence of rock and roll I think is off-base here. Its not that rock an roll was the major influence, but it was still very relevant.

[guest]

in my understanding that's what differentiates a lot of reggae/ska/rock-steady from the more outre forms of later dub, much more indebted to the physicality of rock as opposed to an exploration of its intangibility, ie tubby, scientist et al.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

the differences between rock steady, ska, and reggae are in the guitar strum patterns, aspects of the bass lines, and the tempo. The melodies, chord changes, and structures are the same, indeed the players of instrument in those original bands are were all the same people!

Rock steady is a bit slower, ska is a bit faster, and reggae is in the middle sort of combining both with a different strum pattern.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Punk only became "popular" because the British have a desperate need for new acts to hype up, and punk was what caught the eye of their media for about 5 months.

Are you serious with this? I don´t believe you really forgot that punk become a youth movement in the seventies, almost all the record companies wanted punk artists on their labels and plenty of records released. If there came hiphop records in the seventies, just let me know...

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

I don't really agree, I think there was a lot of music being made by black people up to the 70s that counts as rock n roll, but is just called either funk or soul or whatever. I mean Sly and The Family Stone, Parliament and Funkadelic, James Brown, etc etc that was all small groups with guitars, bass, drums who toured and played live, and wrote and recorded their own music. Sure there were stylistic differences with what white musicians were doing but it was essentially still rock.

Yeah, you´re right. I think most of the music can put under rock (last year Public Enemy was chosen into RnRHoF). Originally I started this thread because quite many seem to think they chose RnR HoF many not rock artists. So I made a list for a artists, who has made straightforward, riffbased R´n`r, kind of continue a tradition what Chuck Berry & the others started. Sly & the Family Stone, Fishbone & others are not in list, because most of their material is something else than straightforward r´n´r. Bad Brains is quite straightforward, but I think it´s more hardcore punk than r`n`r. Of course many of the artists in my list has made also something else than just r`n`r, but anyway I think they have many songs that are badass R´N´R. For example you can call only Elvis two first albums R´n´R.