[ann ashtray]

The whole university system is a joke. Do I think it should be "free", no...not necessarily. If you feel the need to get an education for A) the sole purpose of your own career advancement, or B) don't know how to educate yourself with such a wide array of tools made available to us (libraries, the internet) you might as well be paying for it.

Just a thought.

As of lately it seems like a big waste of time, anyways. Most college graduates are having just as much difficulty finding decent jobs (let's face it, most go to college as a means of furthering their career) as those that opt to just go straight into the work force without any sort of degree....only the latter isn't typically stuck with a large debt they'll be paying off until they are 45.

I just wish more teachers/parents would stress that college is NOT necessary in order to make a living...and any kind of living at that. The majority of richest people (at least in the United States) either never went to college period, or dropped out. It's a fact, not a theory.

Another fact, most of those that attend a technical school (far cheaper + much more practical) end up making more money that those that graduate from whatever given university.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

The whole university system is a joke. Do I think it should be "free", no...not necessarily. If you feel the need to get an education for A) the sole purpose of your own career advancement, or B) don't know how to educate yourself with such a wide array of tools made available to us (libraries, the internet) you might as well be paying for it.

Just a thought.

As of lately it seems like a big waste of time, anyways. Most college graduates are having just as much difficulty finding decent jobs (let's face it, most go to college as a means of furthering their career) as those that opt to just go straight into the work force without any sort of degree....only the latter isn't typically stuck with a large debt they'll be paying off until they are 45.

I just wish more teachers/parents would stress that college is NOT necessary in order to make a living...and any kind of living at that. The majority of richest people (at least in the United States) either never went to college period, or dropped out.

It needs to be free to break away the disadvantages that expensive education traditionally gave only the privileged in our societies. It needs to be free so that our middle class and lower folks who work in our hospitals, schools, city governments, fire stations, police offices, jails, non-profits, churches, etc etc are all better educated and prepared for civil service which benefits our society as a whole. When higher education is one-sided, in only benefits the scumbags and the rich folks who don't even need the perks necessarily, and yet it leaves an underqualified fundamental work force of civil servants highly vulnerable to corruption. In fact, when education is expensive, these civil service jobs which higher education suits are often corrupt simply so the workers can pay for school!!

Public education is a right not a privilege. Perhaps it can be better regulated and organized to deal with drop out rates, I mean just because it is universally free does not necessarily mean university is right for everybody, some folks need to go to trade school or community colleges or certificate programs, but these all should be free and fully public, it only benefits the society to have a better educated population, that does not have to compete tooth and nail for its education! Its like the Apostle Paul sad, "If you bite and consume one another, we wary less you be consumed by each other!"

Our health care system is fucked up and expensive because doctors graduate with upwards of 250,000-300,000 in student loans, which even with a nice salary would take over a decade to pay of while still paying the bills. Where as in Germany or Sweden, doctors are content to make 80,000-90,000 a year, because their university education was entirely free and so they are not shackled with so much bitter debt. American doctors are taking out their debt on their patients for years, and it hurts our society and makes the both the career and the health care unaffordable..

[gast30]

Originally Posted by GeneticKiss

Wow, gast30, I can actually understand your point this time! But really, there is no bigger racket in this world than pharmaceutical (sp?) companies. You know we will never see a cure for most major illnesses like cancer, AIDS, and depression? Because it's FAR more profitable to treat diseases than cure them. Researchers study diseases until they understand the cause of disease, come up with a way temporarily block the symptoms/correct imbalances, and their funding gets yanked before they can find a way to actually repair the damage. Just slap the "INCURABLE" label on it and you've got customers for life.

I'm sorry to hijack the thread, but someone I care about very much is caught in the meds trap, and I just had to get this off my chest. Carry on about free education.

it's normal that people have emotions
some things you have to see free from them to get a better understanding
in what works better

ofcourse there is a sedution to have more money
to close a eye for some more money

what not need to be surprising is when people get angry
when people makes laws to benefit their intrest
and to bring the opposition down our their consious
useing an army of lawyers

the problem is the more times passes
the moderner the law gets
and this corrects where ' making laws for our benefit'
is a 'look there is an open door to escape from this'
is the correction the law needs to make if want to be taken serious
or as 'a modern circus for criminals'

[gast30]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

 

Fuck that.. we should be storming the chancellor's office like the bastille but they would shoot us all dead in the streets, cali is ruthless like that. The cops will tell you point blank, "fuck that shit, this is my hood, we're the biggest gang in town mother fucker."

if we did what they are doing in the UK, people would get shot in the streets, and the LAPD would feel fully justified, its how they roll with crowd control (see MAY DAY rally).. Shit I could only imagine if a group of protesting students stormed the Democratic Party headquarters in downtown LA, they'd probably send in the national guard worse then Kent State 1970! UK you don't know how lucky you are, I pray that this protest works and the rescind these unfair increases..

you need to make a distance from a paranoi story you roll into
like writing a movie script
I ONLY SUPPORT PEACEFULL DEMOSTRATION
nothing else

and i have seen people in new york
all paranoi with camcorders filming everthing when something happens they have the evidence to show
this is an unhealty sign of people and goverment
you can trust people
that they are trying to make things better
you yust need to be a part of it

these people have family and childeren too
sometimes things are wierden and stranged by outside influence
this gives you an easely unstable vieuw of things

[Glice]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

The whole university system is a joke. Do I think it should be "free", no...not necessarily. If you feel the need to get an education for A) the sole purpose of your own career advancement, or B) don't know how to educate yourself with such a wide array of tools made available to us (libraries, the internet) you might as well be paying for it.

I think the idea that the solitary function of education is for the market is erroneous. I can understand people getting hacked off with students having a good time at the taxpayer's expense, but if all university is is training for the marketplace then you have a much duller culture. I make the exception for directly and unequivocally vocational courses like medicine.

The other thing is that it simply isn't the case that people can educate themselves with libraries and the internet. I have a degree in philosophy. As we all know, this amounts to roughly fuck all in real, economic terms. But if I was left floundering in my local library, my philosophical horizons would expand no further than the usual suspects - Sartre, Plato - and even if I did come across Hegel, there's no way I'd have the critical tools to engage with him. And that's not to mention those figures you only really come across by meeting people who know a lot about a subject. I can't imagine anyone has ever come across heterodox Chinese economics and Feyerabend in the same week entirely by accident. Both expanded my horizons, one of them largely forgotten. From another perspective, I've never studied music and it's taken me far, far longer to come to terms with R Strauss and Sibelius when most composition students get to grips with them in their first year.

[gast30]

Originally Posted by Glice

I think the idea that the solitary function of education is for the market is erroneous. I can understand people getting hacked off with students having a good time at the taxpayer's expense, but if all university is is training for the marketplace then you have a much duller culture. I make the exception for directly and unequivocally vocational courses like medicine.

The other thing is that it simply isn't the case that people can educate themselves with libraries and the internet. I have a degree in philosophy. As we all know, this amounts to roughly fuck all in real, economic terms. But if I was left floundering in my local library, my philosophical horizons would expand no further than the usual suspects - Sartre, Plato - and even if I did come across Hegel, there's no way I'd have the critical tools to engage with him. And that's not to mention those figures you only really come across by meeting people who know a lot about a subject. I can't imagine anyone has ever come across heterodox Chinese economics and Feyerabend in the same week entirely by accident. Both expanded my horizons, one of them largely forgotten. From another perspective, I've never studied music and it's taken me far, far longer to come to terms with R Strauss and Sibelius when most composition students get to grips with them in their first year.

1. UNIVERSAL IS THE KEY IN OUR WORLD 1.

and that is something you need to know before going to studie anything

we have now
trough the fast modernisation of information [F.M.I]
be glad we reached this
a new challenge
prepare future jobs and functions
using talent and rewarding that
and preparing for challenges in space explorations
it is a lot of work and need to be done by professionals and experts

[kinn]

wow.

my mind has been blown.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by gast30

we have now
trough the fast modernisation of information [F.M.I]
be glad we reached this
a new challenge
prepare future jobs and functions
using talent and rewarding that
and preparing for challenges in space explorations
it is a lot of work and need to be done by professionals and experts

the ability to laugh at weakness, fitter, happier, and more productive, a pig in a cage on antibiotics..

Originally Posted by gast30

you can trust people
that they are trying to make things better
you yust need to be a part of it

 

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Glice

I think the idea that the solitary function of education is for the market is erroneous. I can understand people getting hacked off with students having a good time at the taxpayer's expense, but if all university is is training for the marketplace then you have a much duller culture. I make the exception for directly and unequivocally vocational courses like medicine.

The other thing is that it simply isn't the case that people can educate themselves with libraries and the internet. I have a degree in philosophy. As we all know, this amounts to roughly fuck all in real, economic terms. But if I was left floundering in my local library, my philosophical horizons would expand no further than the usual suspects - Sartre, Plato - and even if I did come across Hegel, there's no way I'd have the critical tools to engage with him. And that's not to mention those figures you only really come across by meeting people who know a lot about a subject. I can't imagine anyone has ever come across heterodox Chinese economics and Feyerabend in the same week entirely by accident. Both expanded my horizons, one of them largely forgotten. From another perspective, I've never studied music and it's taken me far, far longer to come to terms with R Strauss and Sibelius when most composition students get to grips with them in their first year.

I wouldn't dispute that....but most people (sadly enough) aren't interested in education. Most go to school because they don't want to disappoint, or because they have been told it is necessary. And of course, depending on what one wants to do...sometimes it is necessary. I just don't buy into that "if you want to make a living you must go to college" garbage high school teachers and parents often like to threaten kids with. I don't buy into it, because it is in fact bullshit.

+ As far as those interested in educating themselves....I'm still firmly convinced one can on most topics, including philosophy. Of course, the college experience might introduce one to certain ideas faster than personal research....but with the internet most shit is out there. It's really not much different than the way music used to be before the internet. There were a few years there to where most info. I could gather on a band like the Melvins was pulled from Nirvana bios/liner notes/word of mouth/and the very occasional 'zine article. These days, someone can mention most any band (sans perhaps one that started two weeks ago and hasn't ventured outside of the garage) and there will be a wealth of knowledge online. Same goes with philosophy. Surely, there are theories I'm not aware of....but if one mentions something that goes beyond just a personal idea....I can probably find info online.

I'm willing to bet most of the information you gathered from your text books can be found online.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm interested in philosophy, but not from a students standpoint. Most students would refer to me as a "dirt-road" philosopher at best. My only studies on the subject come from a 12th grade comparative religion course (which covered the Kants, Nietzsches, etc), everything else mostly boils down to personal ideas or conversations I have with others. A strong, yet still just passing, interest. It comes and goes....and usually little focus goes into it if I'm happy/content.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

I wouldn't dispute that....but most people (sadly enough) aren't interested in education. Most go to school because they don't want to disappoint, or because they have been told it is necessary.

ahem, no offense, but that sounds more like a cliche 80s college movie than the reality of life at the colleges I went to and the students I know(n). Most people in college are working people, trying to get ahead, the whole go to school cuz mommie and daddie said so and paid for it are a minority at best, and usually pretty slim at that. College is both only a piece of paper to get legit, but also an opportunity for people to learn a lot and a lot about themselves, and not in a cheesy kinda way, serio pero. The reality, is that you need these pieces of paper to get anywhere legit and to open a lot of otherwise closed doors. Universal education helps to take away the nepotism, corruption and elitism that used to be the hallmark of getting those pieces of paper. Now immigrants, folks without documentation, poor folks, and working class people can get ahead on all those university middle management fuckers. When I talk to the lil homiez on the block who are not necessarily to stupid to go to college, but rather have seldom seen what it can be worth, they are surprised to find out how easy it is to do that for a few years and get shiggity shack legit. Without universal education at all levels, these lil homies are more destined for the pin than the university, shit even I though I'd see a parole certificate before a university degree with honors, but hey, life is a trip.

[kinn]

swa is riet.

al filospohpy is is jsut saemn is lurnin bout nivarna nad malvins.

saem ting.

jsut infoarumashun.

dunt neede 2 be tuaghjt bi lurned profassour.

cna du it al aloen.

al u neede is 2 rede infurmayshun.

dat bset waey 2 luernre.

no1 cna cal u on ur shit.

or deemund stindurds.

u jsut knoaw ur rite.

pik wut u liek ignaore wut u dunt liek.

jsut reede wikkypeedeia.

swa is riet.

thye cal him the "drit roaed folosofer."

whoese dat misteeryous faggit cumin dwon da drit roaed?

why its swa!

he did cuoarse on knat nad neetshee.

he knoaws his shit

b prearppeerard 2 b dazzled.

cna teech u so muach.

dunt neeade studay.

colaege cna b dismisszed.

stirke it out on ur oawn liek swa.

maek muneay off blus.

aloen on drit roade.

"pasanger" by igsy pup wil strat pleyin out of nower.

u jsut nod.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

ahem, no offense, but that sounds more like a cliche 80s college movie than the reality of life at the colleges I went to and the students I know(n). Most people in college are working people, trying to get ahead, the whole go to school cuz mommie and daddie said so and paid for it are a minority at best, and usually pretty slim at that.

Eh, that probably boils down to demographics. Most here constantly bitch about homework and talk about how much they can't wait to be done with it all. Only to graduate and further their bitching about how they can't find the jobs they were promised/etc. many drop out before ever even finishing. Some realize what lies ahead, and opt to just stay in school much longer than need be (like my step brother....he's been attending UGA for about 8 years now, constantly changing his course of study)...."career students", they are not hard to come by.

And of course most are working....they are typically told that they need to do this as well. Mom and Dad can't pay for everything.

I wonder how many graduate and find themselves still working at whatever given wage-job they had while still in school??? Sometimes for x-amount of years before something better comes along...and even this doesn't take away from accumulated debt....which of course brings us back to that whole "college should be free" thing.

I understand...I really do. I just don't relate. I'm likely being obstinate due to a strong working-class upbringing ("you want it, you work for it...nothing is free") Of course the idea of living in a society to where education + healthcare are free is nice...but none of these things are mandatory and I personally don't see why they should be....but only because they are available to those that want them and are willing to pay for it. I don't believe in a government that should be responsible for such things....but then again, I believe in a government that intervenes in very, very little.


And come to think of it....if one is wanting to go for something that doesn't benefit society at large, like say philosophy, I really don't see why that should be free. I mean, should my tax dollars assist someone else in paying for what really is little more than a personal interest? ...just another thought.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Eh, that probably boils down to demographics. Most here constantly bitch about homework and talk about how much they can't wait to be done with it all. Only to graduate and further their bitching about how they can't find the jobs they were promised/etc. many drop out before ever even finishing. Some realize what lies ahead, and opt to just stay in school much longer than need be (like my step brother....he's been attending UGA for about 8 years now, constantly changing his course of study).

And of course most are working....they are typically told that they need to do this as well. Mom and Dad can't pay for everything.

I wonder how many graduate and find themselves still working at whatever given wage-job they had while still in school??? Sometimes for x-amount of years before something better comes along...and even this doesn't take away from accumulated debt....which of course brings us back to that whole "college should be free" thing.

I understand...I really do. I just don't relate. I'm likely being obstinate due to a strong working-class upbringing ("you want it, you work for it...nothing is free") .

Dude that sucks, in cali folks are not so pampered, the majority of college students are working fucking their ass off, paying for it themselves (either aid, loans or work) and trying earnestly to make something of their lives, after all employment is cut throat out here..

I am working class, in fact poorer than that both as a kid and as an adult. I "paid cash all ones" for my degree, no aid, no loans, no mommie, no shit, and a lot of folks I know and see had similar experiences. Further, demographics show most college students at the community and university level are similar circumstances, there are 400,000 CSU/UC students alone, and probably more than 600,000-1million community college students..

Free education is not about getting spoiled by the government, it is about society investing in itself rather than the greedy corporations and academics. Free education benefits most precisely those people who need it, and trust me I didn't get a free education so I can relate to being burdened down unnecessarily by education costs. Why should generations of people start out their life with a lifetime worth of debt? What does that benefit anyone? If mommie and daddie kids are getting into college fine for them, but the rest of us need a serious hand to get through it, and in cali the drop out right is relatively high at times particularly because of unfair and drastic fee/tuition raising. At least they should lock folks in, it is a shame to start university and end years later paying 100-200% more than you started, it is rather prohibitive of success..

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Now immigrants, folks without documentation, poor folks, and working class people can get ahead on all those university middle management fuckers. When I talk to the lil homiez on the block who are not necessarily to stupid to go to college, but rather have seldom seen what it can be worth, they are surprised to find out how easy it is to do that for a few years and get shiggity shack legit. Without universal education at all levels, these lil homies are more destined for the pin than the university, shit even I though I'd see a parole certificate before a university degree with honors, but hey, life is a trip.

again, what am I supposed to tell the lil homiez? fuck it go back to the streetz?

[kinn]

on teh ohater hnad.

meebe swa IS rite.

cuz u cud end up liek gaylice.

naem dropin on masage broad. sayin "u've ubviouslay nevar red **** lol" 2 idiot sombeic youf fawns.

canvertin 2 cafolishism.

al wnet wrung 4 glaice.

dunt wnat 2 go dwon dat roeute.

anywa

gaylice

wen du i get 2 reede ur shit?

u stil dunt deelivar.

i wnat 2 engayge kirticully wit ur werk.

srs.

u must psot mi link.

in PM if u dunt wnt it on borad.

i wont psot it on borad if u dunt wnat dat.

i jsut wnat 2 reede.

mebbe i wrnog nad u r'nt fule of hot ayr.

mebbe u onta sumfin nad ur caftholifscissschism cna be ovarluked as "unfrotunaete aspcet, hoeevar it doez nut spoil his thoaguht."

i wnt 2 reede ur shit probelly moar dan any ohtar hoomin on earf.

pls psot it.

[gast30]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

the ability to laugh at weakness, fitter, happier, and more productive, a pig in a cage on antibiotics..

 

mother should i trust the goverment?

you have and unending piont somewhere
where things make no sense
thinking further
a psychological piont of intelligence
for example 'take now the wikileaks '
that man is all day on tv
even if you leak all documents
it would make no sense
WHY?
people didn't ask for voilence, deaths ect.
i didn't ask for it no one asked for all that misery and pain

a small group of people brought this nightmare on us all
it's these small group of people
in a population of 7 billion people
who are sick in their head

7 billion others are not sick in their head
we see all this happening
we didn't asked for it

[kinn]

w8. i neede 2 maek curracshun.

swa is NUT RIET about dat "dunt c whi i shud pey 4 othars edducatshun."

i menat ealireyar thning he said.

dat is fuscking returded.

swa is idiot 4 evan seyinf dat.

claeims 2 be werking class. i nut buying it swa. u sund liek midle clas who jsut threw it al awey cuz u dumass.

frist of al.

u shud want ur tax 2 pey 4 educayshun.

cus den it cna edoocaet othars who can lurne 2 be dokters nad saev ur shitty lief wen u get whsikey colon cauncer.

u shud want ur taxes 2 halp give kidz who cum frum poor backwroundes chance 2 study.

cuz if u dunt den IQ of nation goes down. peepul al r dummer. less skielldd. less new tech nad knowledge coems 2 nashun. we all poorer.

les intalligint nad deemocrutic soceetriatay if poor peepul nut edoocated.

whi cunt u c dis?

2 muhc lonaley salfish wihskey?

if i wuz cop i wud confisskate all ur moaney.

giv it 2 poor peepul.

truncheon u.

meebe den u wud learne.


if al socieytay wuz dumas salfish leik swa "I DUNT C WHI I SHUD HAVETA PAY 4 UR EDDOOCAYSHUN." den we wud haev evan less soshul coherance. les communitay. moar ideeoyts who thnik they cna be salf suffishint. evar1s wealth goes dwon cuz we al compeetin. wrose haelth cuare. wrose public raoeds. worase safety. wrose edoocayshun. libbertardian nitemare.

[ann ashtray]

Kids that come from poor backgrounds can study....if they choose to work and earn it. That is working class ideology, not always middle class. Sorry.....

[kinn]

no its not.

people who are actually poor cant afford university without state assistance. asking them to work 2 jobs to pay for it themselves makes them stressed, tired, too busy too study and gives them a worse education. we all do worse when that happens as a society. we are underqualified, stupider, pitted against each other with less hope of progress. the class divide gets bigger. those kids have to work even more for even less so their kids can have even less of a hope of being able to afford university. families get stuck in poverty for generations.

meanwhile the countries that have the sense to subsidize their education start to economically out compete us. they become more prosperous and intelligent societies.

this has been proved over and over again.

without state subsidies of education NOONE can afford it except the very rich. the institutions become elitist, the class divide widens.

any working class person convinced their interests lie in the kind of capitalist realism displayed by you are victims of a lack of education and the misguided belief that they of all people aren't the ones completely fucked over in the name of free market education.

[hevusa]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kinn again.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kinn again.

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Kids that come from poor backgrounds can study....if they choose to work and earn it. That is working class ideology, not always middle class. Sorry.....

brother i like you, but that is some serious foot in mouth, talking out of ass bullshit. when I was trying to get into UCLA, i was sincerely contemplating straight robbing some of the wealthier students there, they couldn't even comprehend what I mean when I say "paid cash all ones"

working class is a myth, and a fleeting illusion in america, it is some tricky Dick Nixon mirage, rhetoric to pit the slightly less poor folks with the slightly not rich folks. there is only poor and rich in america, period. if you are not poor, then you just can't relate, and that's fine, but its better to take a spirit of humility rather than holier than thou self righteousness..