[Toilet & Bowels]

Well i support the bds movement so i thought they shouldn't have done it. My girlfriend was in Palestine a few years ago and saw an Israeli soldier murder a Palestinian kid.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

Well i support the bds movement so i thought they shouldn't have done it. My girlfriend was in Palestine a few years ago and saw an Israeli soldier murder a Palestinian kid.

I was in America in 2014-2015 and saw like 20 unarmed black people gunned down by police officers in about 6 months' time.

I'm not trying to minimize the impact of what your girlfriend saw at all... I would need to seek therapy after seeing such a thing if I didn't get myself killed for intervening. I guess I'm just saying... um... well, that kind of thing isn't limited to any one area. Surely it's far worse in Israel than it is in the U.S., but over here, government employees have gotten off for essentially executing individuals because of their skin color or religion. In that sense, such behavior is almost "sanctioned."
The current U.S. president and tanning salon slob-in-chief has publicly encouraged violence against minorities and police brutality. While many of the police officers here stand up and say "Nope, fuck you!" certainly there are some among them who believe it's OK because Orange Loaf said it was OK.

So, shit's not great here. And the U.S. is so has such a long history of loyalty to Israel that I honestly don't understand why this country is not also being targeted by BDS. America is definitely not part of the solution, and are indeed contributors to the problem.

Now, I didn't personally see any of the aforementioned executions of unarmed black citizens, but I have loved in urban areas that have been caught up in the Black Lives Matter vs. Blue Lives Matter insanity, and I've seen first-hand the degree to which police officers' trigger fingers have become twitchier in recent years when dealing with minorities, thanks to the us vs. them mentality of the whole thing.

In 2015, I lived in a mostly black neighborhood of a large metro area, and I saw a black woman get pulled over in front of my house. She was driving with her daughter, who was in a car seat in the back, and SIX POLICE CARS were on the scene in moments. She had her hands above the steering wheel, held up, and two of the cops walked toward her car. One of the others, standing beside his prowler or whatever, watching, shouted, "THERE'S SOMEONE ELSE IN THE CAR!"
and without any hesitation, the guns game out, and several more officers moved on foot toward the car. She lady was screaming, "ITS MY DAUGHTER, ITS MY DAUGHTER, PLEASE, ITS MY DAUGHTER SHES FOUR YEARS OLD!"

And I say there on the stoop in front of my house and watched as as an officer crept up beside the back driver's side door, where the little girl was strapped into her car seat, and pointed a rifle directly at this girl's head.

There was no alert out on the vehicle. There was no anonymous tip. It was just a pull over, and they brought the cavalry to deal with one woman and her 4-year-old daughter. There must have been 12 guns pointed at the pair of them for 15 minutes before they decided on what they were going to do, and the gun just hung there next to this screaming, crying girl's head the entire time.

Eventually, they trashed her car and brought out a few dogs to sniff the trunk, and screamed all kind of horrifying profanity at this woman before they let her go because she hadn't done anything wrong. Her vehicle matched a description of a stolen vehicle. But instead of just checking her license and registration, they put a fucking rifle to her daughter's head and told her to shut the fuck up. Then they went looking for drugs because, y'know, why not at that point?

Anyway... I guess I didn't need to get into all of that, but it would be nice to see a protest of that size and organization leveled at Western countries that are committing atrocities like these.

But if Roger Waters couldn't tour the U.S., what would poor old Roger Waters do for fun in the summer?

It all makes me a bit sick. There are double standards heaped on double standards here, and while the issue is very real, the celebrity angle of it is just bullshit.

Unless a united effort against all ethnically-motivated violence is going to be part of the deal, then it's a flawed and ultimately quite impotent gesture. Shaming Radiohead for not playing a show in Tel Aviv isn't going to do a goddamn thing for the Palestinian people. The fact that Thom Yorke vs. Roger Waters is what made headlines for weeks is pretty telling, as it tells me that the most trivial elements of the entire situation are being given the largest amounts of attention.

I'm sure you know more about the boycot than I do, so if I'm missing something, tell me. I'm not trying to start beef here. I'm just not convinced by the celebrity 90210 bullshit, and I have no reason believe that RADIOHEAD was the biggest story relating to Israel-Palestine, even in that very fucking WEEK.

In short, I guess it all looks a bit too much like Roger Waters masturbating on his own face for me.

[Genteel Death]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Severian again.

[ilduclo]

Because black people are oppressed in the US is no reason to support Israel.

[louder]

Originally Posted by Severian

Pretty fun, huh? Did they play "Myxomatosis?"

Also, I never realized you were from Israel. I thought you lived in Cleveland or some shit.

Yeah they did, that was cool.

I don't know, I feel like their last concert here (back in The Bends tour) was probably better. Most of the newer songs they perform just lack energy live.

We had Guns N Roses perform here just a few days prior to Radiohead, who are just about as popular among the Israeli crowd and no one said a thing.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by ilduclo

Because black people are oppressed in the US is no reason to support Israel.

I think you're deliberately misunderstanding me, and I think this comment right up here ^^ is a dangerous oversimplification, not only of the issue, but of my stance on it.

Where/when did I say anyone should support Israel?

Did I not, in fact, shame the US government for supporting Israel? Did I not imply that their continued support of Israel makes them complicit in the crimes of Netanyahu, and suggest that the US be boycotted as well?

And I'm not engaging in false equivalency here. I'm not saying "black people are oppressed in the US so who cares about Israel?" I'm not a complete fucking moron, thanks, and I get that these two separate issues do not cancel each other out, or lend to any justification of either atrocity.

What I said, in short, was: Fuck any celebrity who thinks a rock band is the most important part of the fight against apartheid. Fuck any celebrity who claims to vehemently oppose tyranny with one hand while selling hand-jobs to a different colored tyrant with the other (Waters' big anti-Trump arena shows are taking place in Trump's back yard — why couldn't Radiohead do the same thing? I know they didn't perform a big expensive ass protest show, but if they did, he'd still have thrown a fit about where they did it).
I also said a lot of things about just how bad things are in the US. I'm tempted to call anyone who makes money hand over Fucking fist touring the US but shames other bands for playing one show in Tel Aviv COMPLETE FUCKING HYPOCRITES. It's easy to wage a headline war against the enemy that's half a world away.)

- Also, Radiohead playing a concert in Tel Aviv is not "supporting Israel."
- Me saying that Radiohead performing a concert in Tel Aviv is pretty much the least important thing in the orbit of the Israel-Palestine conflict is not the same as ME "supporting Israel."

I'm not saying "Go Israel! because black people get shot in the US" and you goddamn well know it.

I'm saying: Fuck Roger Waters and his trivial celebrity bulkshit. It's not doing anyone any favors, and all Radiohead did by playing that show was brjng joy to some fans, and decide not to, y'know, rob them blind of the $200 they all spent on tickets.

I'm also saying: Fuck ethnically-motivated violence of any kind. Fuck it.

So if all of this still sounds like I support Israel because "black people are oppressed," I'd love to hear why.

[ilduclo]

it's important that anyone does their part to end discrimination. Celebrities as well as the rest of us. All that said, boycott by Roger Waters will generate a lot more publicity for BDS, and that's good.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by ilduclo

it's important that anyone does their part to end discrimination. Celebrities as well as the rest of us. All that said, boycott by Roger Waters will generate a lot more publicity for BDS, and that's good.

Ok, sure, but you do get that I never actually said anything about supporting Israel, right? You get that your previous reply essentially just shoved words in my mouth and was an extreme oversimplification and misrepresentation of what I was actually communicating... yes?

[ilduclo]

I still can't figure why you brought black guys dying from police into the discussion...but I can move along.....BDS is essential.

[louder]

BDS is pretty dangerous in its own way though. Do more research.

[ilduclo]

yeah, "constructive engagement" worked so well under Reagan.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by ilduclo

I still can't figure why you brought black guys dying from police into the discussion...but I can move along.....BDS is essential

Can't figure why I brought it up?

K.

Well, I brought it up to make a point: Extremely fucked up things are happening in this country too. That doesn't mean I'm pro-Israel. I was just responding to Toilet & Bowels' anecdotal comment. The point was not "black people are oppressed so suppprt Israel," it was: OK, let's get serious. Let's boycot every nation that excuses ethnic cleansing of any kind. Let's not forget, when wagging our big fat sausages at Radiohead, that this is a global problem. The problem is not simply Israel-Palestine, the problem is tyranny and government-sanctioned violence against human beings.

I brought it up to illustrate that there's plenty to boycott right here in the western world, where these artists are rocking the festival circuit without ever thinking of not doing so.
I'm all for boycotting an oppressive regime. But this was a conversation about Radiohead, and whether or not they did the right thing, and Radiohead was not supporting Israeli soldiers by playing Tel Aviv. They were supporting Radiohead fans. There is a difference between a government/regime and its people ... there'd better be anyway, or I am going to Hell.
Like Louder said, Roger Waters didn't say a word about Guns n Roses playing the same place a week later.
I'm not criticizing the boycot; I'm criticizing the double standard. I'm criticizing the wasted opportunity of using all that talking head headline space to Bitch about Thom Yorke instead of, I don't know, spreading information about the fucking cause? I mean, that's why he's involved, right? To spread information and get people involved, as you said?
Well.... shit job, Rog. You made it look like this was about "social justice warriors" bickering online. That's how anyone who wasn't already invested in the issue would read this tabloid fuckaround.

[ilduclo]

wal, OK, but you pick your battles, I think. I'm already engaged in doing something about the USA's bad policies, I think one can easily add Israel to the bad actors list.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by ilduclo

wal, OK, but you pick your battles, I think. I'm already engaged in doing something about the USA's bad policies, I think one can easily add Israel to the bad actors list.

Cool. Still, that's not really what we're talking about, is it? I mean, Radiohead... right? This is about a Radiohead concert, and whether or not it was the right thing to do. Right?

Anyway, I think we get each other so I'm not trying to fight here, but I am now wondering: Is BDS the only "right" way to not support Israel? I guess Radiohead thinks it's not, because it punishes people who have nothing to do with the Netanyahu regime, and are likely against it, what with them being Radiohead fans and all.

I don't know... you know more than I do about the boycott, so how successful has it been? Successful enough that any band who doesn't participate should be accused of colonialism by an aristocratic British knob who's misusing a term that probably more accurately describes his own insistence that his way is THE way?

Louder lives in Tel Aviv. I'm glad Louder got to see the show. Has Louder having seen the show impaired or diminished anything for anyone?

If it's not clear, the most irritating thing about all of this for me is Roger Waters and his incessant knowitallness and public shaming. Seems like a con to me. I don't buy it.

[ilduclo]

Yeah, I figured that you were angry at the maybe faux radical actions of some of the celebs. I came to the conclusion a few years ago that even if I personally disliked some of the people who are aligned with my positions, celebs or otherwise, I can still kind of like them for what they are doing, or trying to do. Thus, I even have some affection and respect for Jon Bon Jovi....

How successful has BDS been? The jury is still out. It's working well in some parts of the world, IMO, but very poorly in the US, where very few of us, left or right are anti-Likud. And, we keep sending them huge amounts of arms and money..

....if you look at history, there are many parallels. A lot of freedom movements took a massive amount of time, money, lives and energy. But most of them get there sooner or later, I think the best idea is to keep on pushing that stuff along.

[tesla69]

There is rising antisemitism in Europe. For example, many Jews have left France to go to Israel recently. I was astonished at the numbers. Europe is letting itself get overrun by Weapons of Mass Migration. Why would you allow huge groups of people who have no interest in democracy, learning your language, hate women and are destitute into your country? Was Merkel really Stasi and this is their revenge?

[Severian]

Originally Posted by tesla69

There is rising antisemitism in Europe. For example, many Jews have left France to go to Israel recently. I was astonished at the numbers. Europe is letting itself get overrun by Weapons of Mass Migration. Why would you allow huge groups of people who have no interest in democracy, learning your language, hate women and are destitute into your country? Was Merkel really Stasi and this is their revenge?

Ok. What does that have to do with anything though?
Don't answer if you're going to do your Trump thread thing. I'm good.

[ilduclo]

a little history lesson


https://andresmusictalk.wordpress.co...l-scott-heron/

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=217

[tesla69]

Originally Posted by Severian

Ok. What does that have to do with anything though?
Don't answer if you're going to do your Trump thread thing. I'm good.

Because this thread was about Israel and Radiohead and the current situation.

I know you think you are running this board and need to control the conversation so it will be just as boring and bland as your mind.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by tesla69

Because this thread was about Israel and Radiohead and the current situation.

I know you think you are running this board and need to control the conversation so it will be just as boring and bland as your mind.

Bah! That post was trolling and you know it.