[cryptowonderdruginvogue]

Originally Posted by gmku

I had no idea Young Republicans were into Sonic Youth!

 

It's not even about being a republican... its about us being there and not being able to pull out just yet. Forget the fact that you think the whole war was a mistake, the fact is, whats done is done and we cant just leave just yet without making sure the country can run itself, yada yada yada.

[jon boy]

the country will not be able to run itself for a very long time, if ever. its civil war and already real physical segregation is happening between sunnis and shias in the form of walls and fences put up by american troops.

i see that the country will be divided up and confict will rage there for decades, if not longer. thats not what i want to happen but seems likely.

how many western firms now have business in iraq? how many of those businesses do members of the bush regime or tony blairs friends own or sit as executives on? i would like to see the statistics for that.

meanwhile the body count rises.

[Rob Instigator]

I have always been wholeheartedly AGAINST this war.
To this day I sdespise the greedhead fucks that got us there on a personal vendetta by our braindead preznit.

BUT (and it is a very big BUT)

everything that has happened, the civil war, the complete lack of infrastructure, the corruption at all leves, the disbanding of the Iraqui police and army, ALL have been a result of OUR (the USA's) actions and decisions.

because of that, WE, the USA, are responsible for fixing this mess.
if we cannot we cannot, but to pull out and not try anything other than our "let's drive around and wait to be shot or exploded" policy is fucking STUPID .

as of last week the average Baghdad resident gets 4 hours of electricity a day, never knowing when. The average Iraqui gets 2 hours of electricity. there are minimal utility services, no garbage service, terrible sewage problems, no doctors, the hospitals and morgues are overflowing daily.

Each of these are a result of OUR policies and our actions and our inability to correct anything.

[!@#$%!]

rob--
the problem is that iraq was always a bit of an "artificial" country. it was 3 different provinces of the ottoman empire. it was so partitioned i believe by the british empire, which sectioned off kuwait as a "nipple" from which to draw oil.
(that's why when saddam invaded kuwait he said that "kuwait doesn't exist"-- this was not understood in its historical context by the media).
anyway, the country was held together with the iron fist of tyrannical governments. remove the tyrannical government and the country will splinter-- simple enough.
iraq cannot be held together without force. but then there are all sorts of pressures, like
a) turkey does not want a free kurdistan
b) the shias in the south have allegiance ot the iranian ayatollahs
c) the sunni minority used to be in power and the rest of the country wants revenge.

as long as there are u.s. troops in iraq they will be seen as invaders and catalyze the insurgents, i'm afraid. this is a humpty dumpty situation-- "all the king horses, & all the king's men / couldn't put humpty together again".

the point is that for the u.s. to stay there is kinda pointless. and the longer the troops stay, the greater the impulse towards insurrection.

u.n. troops maybe... they are not so politically polarizing (unless of course you're in idaho).

--

ps- in my diseased mind, the best possible outcome is for a peaceful disintegration of iraq in which the kurds have their own state, the sunnis have their own little triangle, and the shias have their own state under the aegis of iran. if everyone is lucky, this would happen peacefully and without much ethnic cleansing. but we'll see...

[Rob Instigator]

I think that we need to send peace corps and americorps in there to build up infrastructure.
we shoudl ahve done something similar right off the bat, instead of sending an occupying army to teach a newly formed army what to do. and an army teaching policemen? that is stupid. army MP's do not function like actual civil police departments.

!@#$% I fully concur with all you say. Iraq was "created " by the UK, and run by a UK appointed leader for a long time. It is a splintered nation and a splintering nation.
this does not excuse the people that put us in there from fixing the situation before we get out of there.

[Tokolosh]

He does make a point. Pulling out now, would be catastrophic on many levels,
not to mention total anarchy and no easy access to oil.

[gmku]

Americans have little patience for a war that drags on more than a couple years, and that continues to kill its soldiers. My bet is we'll be out of there within a year, because the political pressure will become enormous for Bush. If he doesn't agree to a withdrawal, he's going to bring down his own party.

[cryptowonderdruginvogue]

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

He does make a point. Pulling out now, would be catastrophic on many levels,
not to mention total anarchy and no easy access to oil.

THANK YOU!

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I
!@#$% I fully concur with all you say. Iraq was "created " by the UK, and run by a UK appointed leader for a long time. It is a splintered nation and a splintering nation.
this does not excuse the people that put us in there from fixing the situation before we get out of there.

yes, but how does keeping american troops there fixes the situation? american troops are an irritation for iraqis. did you see those marches protesting the invasion?

iraq is going to collapse sooner or later & what's needed are u.n. troops so that the splintering happens in a more-or-less peaceful manner. yes it's fucked but the point is that it CAN'T be fixed. there's a reason why the U.S. has withrawn from the international court of justice, you know?

[gmku]

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

He does make a point. Pulling out now, would be catastrophic on many levels,
not to mention total anarchy and no easy access to oil.

Staying would be more catastrophic. We're creating the anarchy through our presence. We're making it worse.

[cryptowonderdruginvogue]

ugh.

[Tokolosh]

Originally Posted by gmku

Staying would be more catastrophic. We're creating the anarchy through our presence. We're making it worse.

If you ask me, the worst is yet to come. Besides, leaving now would make the whole region unstable.
It's a paradox.

[cryptowonderdruginvogue]

we have to stay.

[ricechex]

All the arguments for staying assume it can get better. It can't. The enemy will never allow it. I was saying from day one here that we fell right into the enemies hands by attacking a muslim nation state for 9/11. It doesn't make any sense, never will, and that's why it will never work.

[cryptowonderdruginvogue]

wow, way to be optimistic

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by cryptowonderdruginvogue

wow, way to be optimistic

he's telling the truth though.

 

he said that ^^ like 4 years ago.

[cryptowonderdruginvogue]

you're a trap

[!@#$%!]

how do you think the u.s. armed forces will make things better crypto? tell us your plan. honest, not a trick question. HOW?

btw, synthetically's brother is in the army so no wonder he's happy about a possible troop pullout.

[cryptowonderdruginvogue]

i have friends in the army, no relatives though

i mean, i hope they come home soon, but they joined the armed forces for a reason
it was their choice to join
you know?
it still doesnt change my opinion.

[WHOREOHSCOPE]