[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Glice

With all due deference to yourself, Mr Instigator - and I think you can take a bit of banter, unlike a lot of people here I disagree with - It's this sort of attitude that I want to avoid. I quite often want strangle people with their own intestines when I hear them saying, "Oh, they ripped off band x" or try and tell kiddies half their age that new band x were influenced by old band y. It's annoying and patronising. People listen to music, and they should, and although some people are receptive to influence lists, the overwhelming majority of people genuinely don't care where the music comes from, they just like to listen to it.

hey man, that is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Music lovers of any age are curious and interested to hear about related bands, projects, music that influenced their band, etc. I am not the type to tell anyone their music susks because it "rips off so-and-so" or because "so-and-so did it better".

I am more along the lines of "hey, if you like band A, you may like this older band B that was kick ass ten years ago."
and when this type of music talk goe son, and a kid of 20 comes off like a fucking asshole treating me or anyone like a dipshit old relic just because they offer mention of a worthwhile band from the past, THAT is the shit that makes ME mad!

and THEY ALMOST ALL GROW OUT OF IT!

and if they don't they turn out like those fucking loser ass 35 year olds you see that believe all music peaked when they were 22. You know the type.
It goes both ways. I like when younger fans tell me, "hey, you like unwound and sonic youth? You may like this BAND X, that is new"

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Glice

the overwhelming majority of people genuinely don't care where the music comes from, they just like to listen to it.

and I do not know if you agree but it has been my experience that the "overwhelming majority of people" are fucking idiot sheep who will gorge on whatever is offered them, with no critical thought.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

true youth culture, not the bullshit marketed youth culture the corporations wish to foist on the kids so they spend their allowances, is only obsessed with the past in order to destroy it.

that is what youth does.

just because music is available does not mean that it is accepted by the youth culture.

Still don't see what you mean.

1. When has there ever been a 'true' youth culture? It's always been manipulated by adults and corporations in some way, in order to make money. They didn't GIVE Elvis records away, you know.

2. In what way does it want to 'destroy' the past? And if anything, I'd like it a lot more if it at least tried to. The past is OK, but no place to live in.

[Glice]

Edit: Directed at Mr Instigator at the top of the page there.

Yes, well... it's a difficult line to tread between 'healthy appreciator' and 'that cunt who always knows best'. I'm sure you tread it very well, I know many who don't. I go to a lot of jazz nights, there's always some old dullard who's insistent on telling me the history of British Dixie (often the same bloke, if I'm honest) and there's the odd one or two who do it without making me not want to listen to them.

And, to Mr Marras - It really doesn't matter, but I was more getting at the fact that it takes me far too long to realise that a band exists and have good tunes, by which time they've usually split up/ done a Radiohead or become Muse.

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Still don't see what you mean.

1. When has there ever been a 'true' youth culture? It's always been manipulated by adults and corporations in some way, in order to make money. They didn't GIVE Elvis records away, you know.

2. In what way does it want to 'destroy' the past? And if anything, I'd like it a lot more if it at least tried to. The past is OK, but no place to live in.

Well, "youth culture" often identifies people or ideas as being the leaders/originators of the general trends therein who are in actuality outsiders and free thinkers who come to their conclusions partly as a result of their separation. And of course, these people are turned into the archetypes of the "movements" they are associated with - Jim Morrison, Johnny Rotten etc.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Still don't see what you mean.

1. When has there ever been a 'true' youth culture? It's always been manipulated by adults and corporations in some way, in order to make money. They didn't GIVE Elvis records away, you know.

2. In what way does it want to 'destroy' the past? And if anything, I'd like it a lot more if it at least tried to. The past is OK, but no place to live in.

youth cukture was CREATED with elvis and buddy holly and bill haley and little richard and CHUCK BERRY

before the 1950's there was NO YOUTH CULTURE. there was just the new, the avant garde, the cutting edge and anyone, from 10 to 90 was invited to partake.

Hip Hop, Raves, techno, punk, hardcore, noise, METAL, hippies, beatniks, etc. were all soaked up by corporate concerns AFTER their creation and fermentation. sure someone sold and pressed the records, but not until the old farts saw that kids are willing to buy new stuff does any corporate people ever care.

the hippies tried to destroy the status quo (the past). the punks tried to destroy the status quo, the hardcore kids tried to destroy the status quo, the alternative indie scene of the 80's tried to destroy the status quo, The hip hop phenomenon of the 80s also, the post-rock scene of the past 8 years has tried to destroy the status quo.

the new becomes the status quo, by trying to destroy it thereby setting itself up to be destroyed by the next thing to come out of the inventive youth.

[Rob Instigator]

the past ten yars has seen the rise of TWEEN culture

for real, and HOW STUPID IS THIS.

I hate when talking heads on TV mention the "tween" market.

10-12 year olds. jesus fucking christ.

[demonrail666]

edit:- rob: i was talking about today's youth culture, which you seemed to be implying had too little respect for the past.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

and I do not know if you agree but it has been my experience that the "overwhelming majority of people" are fucking idiot sheep who will gorge on whatever is offered them, with no critical thought.

I absolutely and most vehemently disagree. People are NOT idiots. Not all of them. It's incredibly patronising to suggest that 'people gorge on what is offered them' because I'm sure someone who knows more than you on, say, books, could easily call you an idiot for not reading book x or whatever. People are into what they're into.

Ok, I can offer a context for this argument - I was hanging out with this girl a few years ago. She was loads of fun, but not terribly bright, or so I thought. She was into Blink 182 and Green Day and that sort of thing. I turned her onto a few things, and she wasn't overly interested. No big deal. One day we get talking about history. She knew ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING and was only 19. Seriously, she was a complete genius when it came to history (and also fashion, but that probably doesn't appeal to my herewith audience). She would definitely fit your category of 'dumb, listens to what she's fed' with regards music. But I very nearly dismissed her when, in fact, she had (still has in fact) a hell of a lot to offer me. That she's not that into music is really one of the very smallest things imaginable.

From another perspective - I very rarely talk about film. I know full well that I don't like film, and if I tell people what my favourite films are they're not cultured or cool enough or whatever. I don't care, I like what I like and film is not a medium of art that interests me, at all, for any reason. If anything it's wankers telling me that a film isn't 'cultured' enough that makes me not want to watch films. Let people be is my general ethos. I mean, I could school people on whatever my fields of expertise are, but you just come across like a wanker if you do that in public or with your friends. Seriously.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

edit:- rob: i was talking about today's youth culture, which you seemed to be implying had too little respect for the past.

by definition, youth culture is involved in the new, the NOW, the today, not with the past or any influences. the best of youth culture creates something out of threads of past influence that is new.

hip hop HAD to have funk, and soul, and rock, and even disco come before it before it could coalesce and create a new form.

punk in the ramones style could not have existed with out chuck berry.

these things are true, but at the moment of a new creation or development, too many people blindly praise it as wholly and completely original, and those dues are the ones that get annoying to me.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Glice

I absolutely and most vehemently disagree. People are NOT idiots. Not all of them. It's incredibly patronising to suggest that 'people gorge on what is offered them' because I'm sure someone who knows more than you on, say, books, could easily call you an idiot for not reading book x or whatever. People are into what they're into.

Ok, I can offer a context for this argument - I was hanging out with this girl a few years ago. She was loads of fun, but not terribly bright, or so I thought. She was into Blink 182 and Green Day and that sort of thing. I turned her onto a few things, and she wasn't overly interested. No big deal. One day we get talking about history. She knew ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING and was only 19. Seriously, she was a complete genius when it came to history (and also fashion, but that probably doesn't appeal to my herewith audience). She would definitely fit your category of 'dumb, listens to what she's fed' with regards music. But I very nearly dismissed her when, in fact, she had (still has in fact) a hell of a lot to offer me. That she's not that into music is really one of the very smallest things imaginable.

From another perspective - I very rarely talk about film. I know full well that I don't like film, and if I tell people what my favourite films are they're not cultured or cool enough or whatever. I don't care, I like what I like and film is not a medium of art that interests me, at all, for any reason. If anything it's wankers telling me that a film isn't 'cultured' enough that makes me not want to watch films. Let people be is my general ethos. I mean, I could school people on whatever my fields of expertise are, but you just come across like a wanker if you do that in public or with your friends. Seriously.

this is all true dude, but we are talking about YOUTH CULTURE, meaning fads, slang, cutting egde style and music and art etc. all this shit either gets lost to history or absorbed into Mainstream popular culture, like hip hop/punk/techno etc have. all I ahve written on this thread applies to youth culture, not to just people living day to day lives man. to each their own is my life's motto!@

[Glice]

That makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, I'm afraid.

Edit: By which I mean it seems like you're suggesting that youth culture is somehow different from people just being into what they're into, which, it seems, is precisely what youth culture would be made up of.

Y'know, rather than some abstract entities have an abstract culture made up of abstract youths dancing abstractly.

[demonrail666]

ROB: Everything you say is true, and there's nothing wrong with acknowledging past debts, but to over-emphasise it loses sight on what's REALLY happening now, in its own right.

Take a band like The Cramps, who are steeped in influences from the past. What ultimately makes them a far more interesting band than, say, The Stray Cats is that they did something contemporary WITH those influences. Acknowledging influence is one thing, but dwelling on it destroys the present.

That'd be the death of everything, including music.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Glice

The Cribs, the Libertines and Bloc Party are all great bands

oh i see, this was your latest elaborate ironic ruse. stop wasting time on the internet brian.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

oh i see, this was your latest elaborate ironic ruse. stop wasting time on the internet.

You do raise a good point. However, I was an indie kid in the past, and probably still am to some degree. They have all written some alright tunes, to my mind. I don't do irony.

And, furthermore, you can prick off, cripple.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Glice

I don't do irony.

irony, contratrianism... po-tay-toe/po-tah-toe

[floatingslowly]

I like sonic youth.

if you like sonic youth, I (most likely) like you too (and think you have good taste).

if you don't like sonic youth, fuck off.

that's as shallow as I get these days.

[demonrail666]

this whole irony issue is so annoying. Someone says they like Paris Hilton, Avril Lavigne, Libertines, whatever and it's immediately assumed they're being 'ironic' and that they only REALLY like them in a 'so bad they're good' kind of way. It's actually possible to find great pleasure in listening to them while still recognising their obvious shortcomings.

Besides, i'd certainly say that someone like Avril Lavigne is FAR better at what she does, than a band like, say, Blonde Redhead are at what THEY do.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

irony, contratrianism... po-tay-toe/po-tah-toe

I'm so putting an AIDS-curse on you right now.