[alyasa]

But the spirit of the early drum'n'bass musicians was of experimentation and pushing the boundaries. If that's not breaking convention, then nothing on this earth is.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by alyasa

But the spirit of the early drum'n'bass musicians was of experimentation and pushing the boundaries. If that's not breaking convention, then nothing on this earth is.

what conventions and traditions did drum n bass try to break? it was merely a natural progression and developement of what was happening in the UK rave scene in the early 90s.

any form of music aimed squarely at the dance floor is setting limits on itself before it's even started, just look at the way drum n bass sounds exactly like it did 10 years ago.

[alyasa]

I agree, most of what is termed d n b now is purely derivative. But like disco, its music and sounds helped to push the envelope of other genres of music and expanded the musical horizons of not a few bands. But like Sonic Youth said, disco was created in the clubs and trickled down to the streets, wherehas somehting like hip-hop, was created on the streets and made its way into the clubs... So, if you focus on the d n b that's being played in the clubs to draw young men and women to dance, then there's no difference really from the Eurotrash cheesy techno that most people tend to dislike. Or the one millionth Britney Spears or Limp Bizkit single. Or all the hip-hop that's saturating every aspect of life now. But I still feel artists like Goldie with Timeless, Alec Empire and the whole digital hardcore stable, DJ Shadow and his cut-and-paste technique, DJ Spooky with his free-form jazz improv spirit, Squarepusher with his wacky, over-the-edge acid; were and are pushing the envelpoe somewhat. You could argue it was a natural progression. But so was; it can be argued; Punk rock. That doesn't make it any less valid.

EDIT: Quite a number of the early punk rockers were influenced as much by the Jamaican reggae dancehalls, as they were by garage rock.

[Glice]

Hmm. I'm getting alyasa's point here, but I'm going to side with T & B.

For me, the 'intelligent' dnb came very late in the game. dnb was all about the ravers getting bored of happy hardcore and getting back to the breaks of hip hop. To be honest, from about 1989-1996/7, dnb is great to dance to when you're off your rocker, but not really the sort of thing you would buy unless you're a dj. After then you start getting more of an effort to make it a marketable genre, but that wasn't ever really very convincing. The IDM/ glitch/ electronic thing came about as an effort to make sophisticated dance music, but dnb has always been about making people dance in clubs.

Regarding DHR stuff, There is very little of that stuff that is dnb - a lot of it comes out of techno. I know it's really annoying to make the genre distinctions, but I think it's worth bearing in mind that techno is very German (nowadays) whereas dnb is/was very British. Every time a DHR band uses a DnB break, it guarenteed to be the Amen break, with a few exceptions.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that dnb means dancefloor and breaks, and it was the techno boys (and it was nearly allways boys) who did the interesting dance music.

Contentious, perhaps....

[Toilet & Bowels]

yeah, i know genre definitions are pretty annoying, but alyasa, most of what you're talking about isn't drum n bass. dj spooky, alec empire & digital hardcore, dj shadow, that stuff isn't drum n bass. squarepusher sort of is, but also he isn't and a lot of drum n bass heads hate/hated him, and i don't think he has any real ties to the drum n bass scene anyway.

[alyasa]

Yes, contentious, perhaps. Have you heard the 'Harder Than The Rest" compilation? That seems less Techno, I would venture to say. But I see the distinction you have made between the jungle and the techno... It's true that Alex Reece and basically everyone on the Metalheadz label were more widely regarded as dancefloor music; than any type of music a serious critic would pay attention to, outside of the dance scene, of course. And it was basically, as you say, the techno boys who were getting all the attention; people like William Orbit, Underworld and Moby. But I sincerely think that was due to the prevailing tastes of the time, rather than any lack of musical merit. I mean the music on the radio then was what, Radiohead? Brian Eno was just getting mainstream recognition, thanks to bands like U2. So a genre like dnb, with its bass-heavy, fast beats and reliance on expensive high-end listening equipment would more than likely not really catch on in the typical radio listener's home then. It is true that dnb was more of music for the clubs, but its offshoots and the stylistic influences it has wrought on modern electronic music is, i think, to a certain extent; quite apparent.

[Glice]

Sure, granted. Yeah, Harder than the Rest was the second DHR record I bought. I have an awful lot of them, but I gave up after they dropped Patric C and started to court NIN.

I can see what you're saying, there is a good point there - for a lot of people, dnb was a very exciting development in music. And it has been absorbed into a lot of other genres. I think an analogy for my line of thought is the difference between punk rock of the Rancid/ NoFx type and where bands like SY or Bauhaus (etc, etc) took it.

What I mean is that punk rock of the formulaic type and dnb of the dancefloor type (so, 1989-1997) is true to its roots. Both serve a social function, and both require that the music adheres to the formulas of their genre. Insofar as this category exists, both musics are functional and anti-progressive... there is progression, but the progressions are small... for dnb it would be finding new ways of using the Amen break, or the few other breaks that were used.

This is the point where the argument gets difficult - I define dnb as being primarily a dancefloor medium, that is, it serves a purpose and a function; anything which does not serve this purpose is probably techno. People like Moby (although it galls me to say this) were exciting at one point because they lifted ideas from 'pure' dnb and packaged them in a more amenable way. Essentially, I'm happy to agree to disagree - I think the cerebral type of music for the record player isn't really dnb, but has elements of it. This is why I say there aren't really any whole albums - Roni Size came out of the proper dnb scene (if you're from around Bristol you were obliged to see him at least a million times, he dj'ed with his girlfriend at a house party down the road from me once) and tried to make listenable albums, and although his dj'ing is shit-hot, the albums don't really get the respect in the scene. The only person I ever saw as taking dnb to a more 'artistic' level sucessfully was Photek, and that was only the one album (the one with nen-ti-ich-ryu or whatever it was called) after which he settled more into the techno/ laptop scene, and by which time people got bored of 'progressive' dnb and turned to electronica, glitch, IDM and techno.

There are a few utterly wonderful 12"s that came out of dnb, but I suspect the only people who would be able to give a comprehensive list would be dj's. I'll e-mail a few mates of mine who've been in the scene for 15 years or so, see what they say, but I will say that I know they'll agree with me - I say this because these are borrowed opinions, lifted entirely from people I know on the scene.

Rambling bollocks, sorry...

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Glice

The only person I ever saw as taking dnb to a more 'artistic' level sucessfully was Photek, and that was only the one album (the one with nen-ti-ich-ryu or whatever it was called)

indeed. his form and function record is pretty much the only dnb record i ever listen to anymore. ni-ten-ichi-ryu was on modus operandi, i think, i never got round to buying that.

[Glice]

Modus Operandi, that's the kiddie. Great record actually, although I think I lent it to someone for a set and it never came back.

The bodyrock I was thinking of wasn't by Moby, but possibly by Adam F, although I'm not entirely sure...

[alyasa]

And standing on the shoulders of giants, an excellent post you have conceived. I exist now, as I am, enlightened; after reading that delectable post that you have so graciously deigned to let the Sonic Youth fan community peruse. But then again, I feel it a bit unfair that Sonic Youth, Rancid and a million other bands are lumped together under one umbrella phrase; Punk Rock. Maybe there should be a labelling convention, where bands get labelled by the quality of their music. That would be rather useful would it? Then again, who would be the judge of that? No, I undersand where you're coming from and how difficult it would be to break away from something as trivial as a naming convention if it arose from a community that supported and basically birthed you. And thus, everyone from Underworld to Moby to Alec Empire to even Bjork, probably, would be Techno. Others would be Hip-Hop and the small dancefloor minority would be drum and bass. But, no matter; what matters is that there are musicians who recognize the validity of the music and incorporate it into their own. These musicians are somewhat conventionless and calling them IDM is a real big mistake for the continued creativity and growth of these talents. Sometimes I feel as though mainstream success is something that musicians should strive to avoid Thank you again, Glice and Toilet & Bowels, for a very informative read.

[Glice]

Haha. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but an excellent post whatever.

The whole genre thing gets really boring, I think there is a good reason for labelling genres (making conversation easy) but there is a point where you're just arguing for the sake of arguing - "No, they're a death metal band", "I thought they were thrash-core" etc.

Yeah, probably a good idea to abandon thread herewith.

[alyasa]

I agree completely. No use making good music become less so, by arguing over which label fits it the best. That would be purely academic, wouldn't it?

[Glice]

... Yes. Although I am not averse to being an academic, and I don't like to privelege 'pure' listening over 'intellectual' listening (in fact, I think the latter precedes the former). But that, my friends, is a whole different argument.

[Inhuman]

ESG
They started out as drum and bass, and eventually got some simplistic guitar. Excellent band though. Check them out

[Toilet & Bowels]

i agree, genres are usefull but ultimately wretched. however, i find the pedant in me comes to the fore when somebody tries to define something as being a part of a genre that it is not. like ESG, they aren't drum n bass. or when people do that thing of saying "yeah john coltrane, he was totally punk, yeah he was punk rock" i.e. anything that is forward thinking is deemed worthy of being punk.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

i agree, genres are usefull but ultimately wretched. however, i find the pedant in me comes to the fore when somebody tries to define something as being a part of a genre that it is not. like ESG, they aren't drum n bass.

I once had a stinking argument with a fake feminist who contended that a track off of the White album was 'the first drum and bass tune'. I pointed out that using a jazz drumbeat is not really anything like inventing drum and bass. The argument, such was its erratic path, closed with me saying, "I'm sorry that your sex life is so shit that you feel the need to pretend to be a lesbian, you absolute waste of flesh".

The punk thing is resolutely anti-progression. Musically, I mean. The punk ethos of cultural resistance is a fairly common concern to most eras, and I find it a horrific miscegination to conflate cultural resistance with musical progression, a la 'Dylan/ Lennon/ Davis (etc) were the first punks'.

[alyasa]

This whole thread has been like how I imagine Sonic Youth conversations would be like...

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Glice

I once had a stinking argument with a fake feminist who contended that a track off of the White album was 'the first drum and bass tune'. I pointed out that using a jazz drumbeat is not really anything like inventing drum and bass. The argument, such was its erratic path, closed with me saying, "I'm sorry that your sex life is so shit that you feel the need to pretend to be a lesbian, you absolute waste of flesh".

The punk thing is resolutely anti-progression. Musically, I mean. The punk ethos of cultural resistance is a fairly common concern to most eras, and I find it a horrific miscegination to conflate cultural resistance with musical progression, a la 'Dylan/ Lennon/ Davis (etc) were the first punks'.

the answer: people who vex me should exterminated! actually on second thoughts give them lobotomies and turn them into slaves.

[_slavo_]

I'm seeing LTJ Bukem & MC Conrad in a couple of days....i can't say I'm pissing my pants from excitement, but however it can be a nice retrospective fun...
Last time I've been to drum'n'bass party was in like 3 years.

drum'n'bass has died a quite a long time ago. no evolution whatsoever.

[PAULYBEE2656]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Tell me about drum n bass, I know nothing about it, but it seems compelling to me.

lightning bolt!!!!!!!!!!!!!